Help! What have I become?

[jmarkoa]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

...he was good with saying God was in Christ. Thats why we can say Jesus is God. I have a friend I have taught about the oneness of God several times. When I hear him teach Oneness he reduces it down to this. He was God because God was in him...

Yes, many in our church use this reasoning. I get it. That is kind of how my thinking transitioned. I had to keep asking myself "did I just misquote the word of God?" Jesus gives that amazing example while being tempted where He just simply quotes the word! Powerful stuff!

On a side note, I always said the phrase "God robed in flesh" to describe Jesus. That is until I tried to find it! I stopped using it after doing some research. Its a powerful example of how we can unintentionally incorporate other's ideas as Bible when they are not!

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

...To me that is a rather shallow way of teaching Jesus is God. It is perhaps a bit better than the doctrine that Jesus is only an anointed man. But then again if thats all that made him God then that would be all he was. An anointed man. Like Moses. Like Elijah. God was in them. And also God is in us. That alone doesnt make anyone God.

"...To me that is a rather shallow way of teaching Jesus is God..."

Which is why I no longer say "Jesus is God". I think it robs Jesus of what he accomplished. Yes, his virgin birth from God and Mary is very different than ours. His childhood must have also been quite different. He had learned so much knowledge by 12, Its just amazing! I think of all the OT examples of how God worked with all those men you listed. The visitations, the dreams, the miracles, the constant patience he even had with Moses at a much older age! So, just imagine how much walking, talking and instructing he must have done for his very own child! All that beauty of the story goes away when we dismiss all he did by saying, "he wasn't REALLY a man like us, he was GOD!"

Anyway, that's the point I got to. I had to reexamine everything I was saying.

"...Jesus is only an anointed man..."

I don't just say anointed, I've seen verses where Jesus says the Spirit is DWELLING in him. But really, I couldn't tell you the difference between anointed and indwelling anyway.

"...God was in them. And also God is in us. That alone doesnt make anyone God...."

Yes! That is my whole point! I know he was a man, I just can't find a place that says he is a God. I know you kind of wrote that tongue in cheek and do get your perspective.

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

...I see almost no difference in Unitarianism and the doctrine you seem to be believing. Its not Trinity. Its not Arian. Its not Apostolic Oneness. ...

Yes, back on topic, I agree. For some reason I just didn't click with that Biblical Unitarian guy on other Bible teaching, past what he had to say about God and Jesus. I'm going to devote some time to going back through all his videos.

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

...
If Jesus did not pre exist his earthly life how did he see satan fall like lighning from Heaven?

Luke 10:18

I don't know much about the fall of satan. I thought he was always to be the accuser of the brethren in heaven before God until being cast down to earth at the end times. Then he gets bound during the millennial reign. Then loosed for a little season. Then judged and into the lake of fire.

He may be talking about seeing a future event, having an understanding of some of those things to come. Or, he may be illustrating how satan operates.

That is another topic I need to do more study on. How do see that scripture working with other scriptures?

[jmarkoa]

Originally Posted by jediwill83

https://detroitcatholic.com/news/gar...-meets-the-eye

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[jediwill83]

Massive Wall Of Text Alert

Originally Posted by jmarkoa

Looks like your link requires a subscription...

In Nathaniel’s calling, there’s more than meets the eye

4-5 minutes


A stained-glass window depicts Nathaniel, the disciple whom Jesus called “from under the fig tree.
” Nathaniel’s initial response to Jesus is somewhat puzzling — until paired with a certain prophecy from Zechariah.
The calling of the apostles is pretty much straightforward. Jesus walks up to fishermen and calls them to follow him and to become “fishers of men.
” The meaning is deep, but not very mysterious. The same cannot be said for the calling of Nathaniel. Unlike the usual, “Come follow me,” Nathaniel and Jesus enter into a short dialogue that seems on the surface to be very odd.
The narrative begins with Philip telling Nathaniel that he had found the one prophesied by Moses and the prophets, Jesus of Nazareth. Nathaniel was not impressed and says to Philip, “Can anything good come from Nazareth?” Philip invites Nathaniel to “come and see.
” While still a ways off, Jesus sees Nathaniel and says to him, “Here is a true Israelite. There is no duplicity in him.
” Nathaniel’s answer is sometimes translated poorly. Nathaniel doesn’t reply, “How do you know me?” like we’d expect him to say. Instead, he says, “Where do you know me?” Jesus answered, “Before Philip called you, I saw you under the fig tree.
” Nathaniel responds, “Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the King of Israel” (John 1:45-50).
Gary Michuta
If you’re like me, you probably have the feeling that there is more going on in this passage than meets the eye. For example, why did Nathaniel have a problem with Nazareth? Why did he ask Jesus, “Where do you know me?” instead of, “How do you know me?” And why would Nathaniel assume Jesus is the Messiah King simply because he saw him under a fig tree? Certainly, Nathaniel recognized something that we don’t. But what?Let’s begin by noting that it all begins with Philip and Nathaniel’s discussion about Nazareth. Philip identifies the Messiah as “Jesus of Nazareth,” and Nathaniel asks, “Can anything good come out of Nazareth?” Why focus on Nazareth?Nazareth is a Hebrew name that has for its root the word “netzer,” which means “branch” or “shoot.
” The figure of a “branch” or “shoot” is commonly associated with the Messiah King (Isaiah 11:1, Jeremiah 23:5, etc.). As we will see, this will be important.
Next, Nathaniel accepts Philip’s invitation and leaves his fig tree to go see this person from the town of “shoot” or “branch.
” When Jesus sees Nathaniel coming to him, he calls him “a true Israelite.
” Nathaniel responses, “Where do you know me?” On one level, this is the first time Nathaniel meets Jesus, so it is a logical question. It’s also possible that Nathaniel knew of the messianic prophecy in Zechariah 3:8, 10, which says:“Listen, O Joshua, high priest! You and your associates who sit before you are men of good omen. Yes, I will bring my servant the Shoot … On that day, says the LORD of hosts, you will invite one another under your vines and fig trees.
” (Zechariah 3:8, 11).
Notice that Zechariah calls the Messiah, “the Shoot,” and says that in the days of the Messiah the Israelites will “invite one another under your vines and fig trees” just like Philip invited Nathaniel. Nathaniel, being a true Israelite, accepted the invitation and came out. Perhaps wondering if this was a mere coincidence, he asked Jesus “where” he knew him. Jesus answered, “Before Philip called you, I saw you under the fig tree.
” It was no coincidence that Nathaniel, a true Israelite, was invited to meet Jesus of Nazareth (the Shoot) from under a fig tree. This is exactly what Zechariah foresaw. Realizing this, Nathaniel proclaims, “Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the King of Israel.
” Jesus answered, “Do you believe because I told you that I saw you under the fig tree? You will see greater things than this.
” Indeed, not only would Nathaniel see the fulfillment of Zechariah 3:8, 11, but ultimately the fulfillment of all that was written about the Messiah by Moses and the prophets.
Gary Michuta is an apologist, author and speaker and a member of St. Michael the Archangel Parish in Livonia. Visit his website at www.
handsonapologetics.
com.

[jmarkoa]

Originally Posted by coksiw

I don't intent to offend...

OK, that's fair enough. Some of these points were covered earlier, some need more explanation, so forgive any repeat info.

My experience mentioned in the first post happened over 10 years ago. Allowing God to be the Father was the title, I still have the CD. After opening the lesson, the visiting doctor read six or seven scriptures in a row. He kinda screamed them, he was very passionate. The scriptures were all classic "trinity" scriptures that just aren't acknowledged in Oneness circles let alone preached from the pulpit. And definitely not in the way he was doing it. Certainly not ALL OF THEM AT ONE TIME! I remember looking around crying uncontrollably, (yes I am a grown man) everyone was so stoic faced, no one was "getting" it, no "Amen's", you could hear a pin drop. Yes, one of THOSE services, as my wife put it, not knowing what I was dealing with at 3:00AM the previous night. This was no coincidence, this was God showing me that He knew right where I was. The miraculous word of God being directly spoken to me as an individual and meeting my needs had happened several times before this. That was never really a surprise, but rather became an expectation of mine that grew from service to service. But, this ENTIRE service appeared to be just for me! You may not agree, But I KNOW God was involved in this.

I'm not saying God told me to rewrite the gospel! I'm not tying this experience to any different words outside the Bible. Just outside my small, well studied, list of doctrine scriptures. He took the time to answer my prayer for confirmation to keep reading other scriptures and be open to them.

I've not jumped ship, moved on, or given up on anything! I've studied more, added to my understanding, and my knowledge base. I will continue to do so. Over the years, I've talked with our pastor, our assistant pastor, my brother, who is a UPCI pastor, my sister, who is married to a UPCI pastor, my parents, who are UPCI members, and finally my wife, whose parents, and brother are both UPCI pastors. Yeah. So, NO, I'm not just doing this for fun to fit in!

I believe in being planted and growing where God plants you. I know this because God told me He planted me here and that I should start growing! I hope I have. I'm not perfect, I still need a lot of work. But, I'm not going anywhere without confirmation from EVERYONE I trust, especially my pastor. I just sense God may be getting me ready for something else. To be honest, that's not really what I want. I don't really want my life uprooted. I love my church and God's spirit is here in a very mighty way! I've personally seen many people healed. But, first and foremost, I want whatever God has for me next, whatever that may be. I DON'T want God to have to light a fire under me to get me where he wants me.

With a job ending very soon, and no in state prospects yet, I just want to be prepared if choices arise. I also believe in the concept of getting council from many places you trust.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by jmarkoa

I understand this is one of those scriptures that appear to say Jesus and God are the same. But, I see a BIG difference in an invisible God, and a visible image of God. For me, it more clearly illustrates their differences. I'm supposed to be the image of Christ, but surely no one believes I should BE Christ.



And that is everything. That question assumes Jesus is a GOD. I understand him to have been a MAN. At his birth, during his entire life, and even at his death. He was a man. He then died. The risen Jesus had a glorified body. He has a body, but not one like a man. When I say man, I mean one with a corruptible body that must be overcome.



This describes how Jesus is the new "mouthpiece" of God that replaced the prophets of the Old Testament. I really love the description of a God who appoints an heir, His Son! Here is a description of exactly how much love a father can have toward a son! This entire world is made by God with His Son in mind! Even from the very beginning!

Amazing how this describes Jesus himself dying for our sins! I was always taught that his sinless life was only possible because He WAS God living as a man. Be here it clearly shows Jesus doing the work, then sitting on the right hand of God! The church I attend has had Brother Bernard come and teach this as something completely different than it says. When explaining this verse, he joking asked, Was he sitting on His lap? So yes, I think I already know your viewpoint on this. Mine has changed to just believe it the way its stated. That faith in exactly what the word says is what I believe has turned on a different light in my head.

If Jesus is the image of the invisible God, if Jesus is the One who shows or demonstrates He Whom No Man CAN See, then there is no seeing of God other than seeing Jesus. I am amazed how you read that, quoted it even, and yet seemed to completely miss the significance of what that says!

The rest of your post proves what I suspected and alluded to earlier: you were taught an aberrant theology you were told is called "Oneness". Jesus wasn't sinless because He was God. He was sinless because He fully obeyed the will of God at all times, as He Himself testified. This aberration that Jesus was sinless BECAUSE He was God is Roman Catholic trinitarian dogma based on their heretical doctrine of inherited original sin being a component essence of human nature. Sinless means fully obedient. Jesus always did what was pleasing to His Father. Therefore, He was "without sin." It has nothing to do with His ontological nature as God (whatever that is even supposed to mean).

As for "right hand", how does an omnipresent spirit being have a right hand, literally? Obviously "right hand" is necessarily symbolic of the position of power and authority. Jesus being on the right hand of God has nothing whatsoever to do with geospatial location. Unless you believe God is a finite being with literal right and left hands?

Is that what you believe? God is a finite being with literal right and left hands?

You say "faith in exactly what the word says is what I believe". Okay, then do you believe what the Word says? It says:

Titus 2:13 KJV
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Jesus Christ is the one who is to appear. He is called by the apostle "the great God and our saviour". There aren't two beings who are to appear, the grammar is irrefutable and clear. Jesus Christ is our great God and Saviour. Is He YOUR great God and saviour?

Or how about this:

Revelation 21:6-7 KJV
And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. [7] He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

The Alpha and Omega is to be our God and Father. Who is the Alpha and Omega?

Revelation 1:8 KJV
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

The Alpha and Omega is the Almighty.

Revelation 1:10-11 KJV
I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, [11] Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

John heard the Alpha and Omega speaking, and the Alpha and Omega claims to be the first and the last. Who is this speaking?

Revelation 1:12-18 KJV
And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; [13] And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. [14] His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; [15] And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. [16] And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. [17] And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: [18] I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

John turned turned to see who this Alpha and Omega, this first and last, previously identified as the Almighty, who is to be our God and Father. And who did he see? JESUS CHRIST, the Son of Man, claiming to be the first and the last! So Jesus Christ is the Alpha and Omega, the first and last, the Almighty, who is to be our God and Father.

You believe SOME of the Word, but not ALL of the Word.

[jmarkoa]

Originally Posted by coksiw

OK, so if I'm not mistaken, your belief is what it is called Unitarianism. I'll come back to post more soon.

Yes, I think this what I really need to study up on.

Any info on what these guys "really" believe, would be helpful. Is this a "Heaven or Hell" issue for them?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by jediwill83

Massive Wall Of Text Alert






In Nathaniel’s calling, there’s more than meets the eye

4-5 minutes


A stained-glass window depicts Nathaniel, the disciple whom Jesus called “from under the fig tree.
” Nathaniel’s initial response to Jesus is somewhat puzzling — until paired with a certain prophecy from Zechariah.
The calling of the apostles is pretty much straightforward. Jesus walks up to fishermen and calls them to follow him and to become “fishers of men.
” The meaning is deep, but not very mysterious. The same cannot be said for the calling of Nathaniel. Unlike the usual, “Come follow me,” Nathaniel and Jesus enter into a short dialogue that seems on the surface to be very odd.
The narrative begins with Philip telling Nathaniel that he had found the one prophesied by Moses and the prophets, Jesus of Nazareth. Nathaniel was not impressed and says to Philip, “Can anything good come from Nazareth?” Philip invites Nathaniel to “come and see.
” While still a ways off, Jesus sees Nathaniel and says to him, “Here is a true Israelite. There is no duplicity in him.
” Nathaniel’s answer is sometimes translated poorly. Nathaniel doesn’t reply, “How do you know me?” like we’d expect him to say. Instead, he says, “Where do you know me?” Jesus answered, “Before Philip called you, I saw you under the fig tree.
” Nathaniel responds, “Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the King of Israel” (John 1:45-50).
Gary Michuta
If you’re like me, you probably have the feeling that there is more going on in this passage than meets the eye. For example, why did Nathaniel have a problem with Nazareth? Why did he ask Jesus, “Where do you know me?” instead of, “How do you know me?” And why would Nathaniel assume Jesus is the Messiah King simply because he saw him under a fig tree? Certainly, Nathaniel recognized something that we don’t. But what?Let’s begin by noting that it all begins with Philip and Nathaniel’s discussion about Nazareth. Philip identifies the Messiah as “Jesus of Nazareth,” and Nathaniel asks, “Can anything good come out of Nazareth?” Why focus on Nazareth?Nazareth is a Hebrew name that has for its root the word “netzer,” which means “branch” or “shoot.
” The figure of a “branch” or “shoot” is commonly associated with the Messiah King (Isaiah 11:1, Jeremiah 23:5, etc.). As we will see, this will be important.
Next, Nathaniel accepts Philip’s invitation and leaves his fig tree to go see this person from the town of “shoot” or “branch.
” When Jesus sees Nathaniel coming to him, he calls him “a true Israelite.
” Nathaniel responses, “Where do you know me?” On one level, this is the first time Nathaniel meets Jesus, so it is a logical question. It’s also possible that Nathaniel knew of the messianic prophecy in Zechariah 3:8, 10, which says:“Listen, O Joshua, high priest! You and your associates who sit before you are men of good omen. Yes, I will bring my servant the Shoot … On that day, says the LORD of hosts, you will invite one another under your vines and fig trees.
” (Zechariah 3:8, 11).
Notice that Zechariah calls the Messiah, “the Shoot,” and says that in the days of the Messiah the Israelites will “invite one another under your vines and fig trees” just like Philip invited Nathaniel. Nathaniel, being a true Israelite, accepted the invitation and came out. Perhaps wondering if this was a mere coincidence, he asked Jesus “where” he knew him. Jesus answered, “Before Philip called you, I saw you under the fig tree.
” It was no coincidence that Nathaniel, a true Israelite, was invited to meet Jesus of Nazareth (the Shoot) from under a fig tree. This is exactly what Zechariah foresaw. Realizing this, Nathaniel proclaims, “Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the King of Israel.
” Jesus answered, “Do you believe because I told you that I saw you under the fig tree? You will see greater things than this.
” Indeed, not only would Nathaniel see the fulfillment of Zechariah 3:8, 11, but ultimately the fulfillment of all that was written about the Messiah by Moses and the prophets.
Gary Michuta is an apologist, author and speaker and a member of St. Michael the Archangel Parish in Livonia. Visit his website at www.
handsonapologetics.
com.

Hey that's actually a pretty good point.

[jmarkoa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I have to be honest. This kind of thread becomes very tiresome and here's why (nothing personal)...

Ok, well, thanks for sharing your story at least. Thanks for being very upfront about your response, even though it did read very gruff. My intent was not to be tiresome. I wont bother to respond to any additional posts you may have. Sorry if I've said something in one of my responses that offended.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by jmarkoa

Yes, I think this what I really need to study up on.

Any info on what these guys "really" believe, would be helpful. Is this a "Heaven or Hell" issue for them?

Most Unitarians don't believe in hell. In fact, great numbers of them aren't even Christians. Muslims are Unitarians, as are most Jews. A lot of "Christian" unitarians are universalists (everybody including satan gets saved in the end), a small number are either Messianic, Ebionite, Netzarim, Sacred Name, or Christadelphian.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by jmarkoa

Ok, well, thanks for sharing your story at least. Thanks for being very upfront about your response, even though it did read very gruff. My intent was not to be tiresome. I wont bother to respond to any additional posts you may have. Sorry if I've said something in one of my responses that offended.

You didn't offend me. Sorry you don't want to hear that you are wrong (even though you seem intent on telling us all how you were wrong to believe like we all believe, ergo we are all wrong). Have a nice day.