Demons and the believer

[berkeley]

Esaias is wrong? But the only one that made his case.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

How did you get this so wrong? 'we wrestle not against flesh and blood' meaning 'human beings'. Our fight isn't with humans but against spiritual powers of darkness, ie: devils/demons/fallen angels who fight against our minds with deceitful lies and lusts.
This dark spiritual army is organized into a hierarchy. They also influence governmental leaders to do their bidding. Our war is not against human beings in any format. We are to LOVE them and lead them to the side of light.

Titus 3:1 Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by berkeley

Esaias is wrong? But the only one that made his case.

That's how it works around here. You're right if you bow to the sacred calf, and wrong if you butcher it and serve it for dinner.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

The burden of proof is on you.

Already supplied. Your serve.

1.But here Revelation 12:3-4 "And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. [4] And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born." Stars represent angels throughout the book of Revelation. 1/3 fell by following the Great Dragon Lucifer. (See Isaiah 14:12-14, Ezekial 28:13-15, Luke 10:18-20)

Stars represent humans:

Num_24:17 I shall see him, but not now: I shall behold him, but not nigh: there shall come a Star out of Jacob, and a Sceptre shall rise out of Israel, and shall smite the corners of Moab, and destroy all the children of Sheth.

Gen_37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.

Dan_12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

Furthermore, the text under discussion says nothing about stars.

And again, the events of Revelation 12 occur far after the events of Daniel, so even if Revelation 12 depicts a "fall of angels" it had not yet happened in Daniel's time.

And yet again, the vision is Revelation is a symbol. The angels who fought against the dragon and his angels are said to have overcome him by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony, which does not apply to actual angels, but to the saints. Therefore, the depiction of a battle between Michael and his angels, and the dragon and his angels, has to do with the ministration and preaching of the Gospel being opposed by the ministers of satan - see here:

2 Corinthians 11:14-15 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. (15) Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Satan is "transformed" into an angel of light, and he has ministers that oppose Gospel ministers of the Truth.

But again, even if there are "fallen angels", then the only clear verses that speaks to the matter refutes the idea the prince of Persia is a fallen angel:

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Supposing these verses do indeed speak about an angelic fall, it says they are imprisoned in hell under chains awaiting judgment, not running loose controlling the nations. That these verses do not in fact teach some "fall of the angels" is made clear in the thread about the book of Enoch, which see.

2.Ephesians 6:12 "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." You can try to explain this away as human Government but what comes right after it in verse 16 "above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one." The armor of God is not for fighting Governmental forces, but it says in the scripture it's for fighting the "wicked one".

I already exegeted the passage and the entire context of the verse in question. The armour of God was explained, as well as how Paul said to put it on and use it, which is the basis for my original claim anyway. Try again.

3. Jude 1:9 "Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee." And Revelation 12:7-8 "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, [8] And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven." That's why it took Michael because Gabriel is just a messenger angel, it took the warrior angel just like in this case with Prince of Persia.

Simply quoting unrelated verses does not prove anything. The Enoch thread deals extensively with the Jude verses, please see that thread. Jude is quoting from Jewish mythological literature in order to make a point about those who teach the angels fell, and it isn't the point you think he is making.

4. That's why it took Michael mentioned in the above case. Just as in the passage in Daniel 10:13.

Sorry, but simply repeating the claim isn't proof or evidence.

I PROVED FROM SCRIPTURE that "powers and principalities" are secular government offices, here I'll do it again in case your memory is short:

Titus 3:1 Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,

Now consider, who is this talking about:

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Who are the "rulers of the darkness of this world"? Who are the "princes" that rule this world?

1 Corinthians 2:6-8 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: (7) But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: (8) Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Neither demons nor fallen angels crucified Jesus, the Roman and Jewish political and religious leadership did.

[Esaias]

Titus 3:1 Put them in mind to be subject to PRINCIPALITIES AND POWERS, to obey MAGISTRATES, to be ready to every good work,

[berkeley]

Excellent stuff, brother.

[Esaias]

Interesting anecdote. My wife was reading Daniel, literally RIGHT NOW, and was unaware of this thread. She asked me about the "prince of Greece" being Alexander, and then looked at her Bible for a minute, and then said "So Gabriel dealing with the prince of Persia has to do with him moving on Cyrus' heart to have the Temple rebuilt"?"

I have had no discussion with her concerning this subject, or this thread, whatsoever. She, simply reading the text as is, came to pretty much the EXACT same conclusion which I have presented here. Go figure. I realise that won't hold water with anyone here, nor do I expect it to, but it is significant to me that someone I personally know, with no exposure to this thread or the thoughts expressed herein, came to the same conclusion.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by berkeley

Excellent stuff, brother.

[berkeley]

This thread proves that we can prefer our preconceived notions over what the text actually states.

[Esaias]

Oh, looky here, Adam Clarke's commentary has this to say:

But who are these of whom the apostle speaks? Schoettgen contends that the rabbins and Jewish rulers are intended. This he thinks proved by the words του αιωνος τουτου, of this world, which are often used to designate the Old Testament, and the Jewish system; and the words εν τοις επουρανιοις, in heavenly places, which are not unfrequently used to signify the time of the New Testament, and the Gospel system.
By the spiritual wickedness in heavenly places, he thinks false teachers, who endeavored to corrupt Christianity, are meant; such as those mentioned by St. John, 1Jo_2:19 : They went out from us, but they were not of us, etc. And he thinks the meaning may be extended to all corrupters of Christianity in all succeeding ages. He shows also that the Jews called their own city שר של עולם sar shel olam, κοσμοκρατωρ, the ruler of the world; and proves that David’s words, Psa_2:2, The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, are applied by the apostles, Act_4:26, to the Jewish rulers, αρχοντες, who persecuted Peter and John for preaching Christ crucified.

Granted, Clarke goes on to point out that most commentators disagree, and think the passage refers to a hierarchy of demonic beings. Clarke himself seems not to give his own judgment on the subject. But obviously, I'm not the only one who thinks this way. Clarke does supply quite a bit of interesting information concerning the actual terminology used and how it would have been understood in that day.