Divorce and Remarriage

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

I think its the marriage that makes two people one flesh and not just fornication.

Paul said that a man becomes one flesh with a prostitute if he joins with her bodily:

1 Corinthians 6:16
Or do you not know that he who is joined to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, “The two will become one flesh.”

The "one flesh" relationship is established whenever people share their bodies.

[jediwill83]

Originally Posted by Amanah

I know this is a touchy subject and the last thing I want is to make someone feel bad, I wish you all successful elderships, ect.

But, I'm not clear on the subject.

when the bible says an elder must be the husband of one wife there are only two options right?

*one wife in a lifetime, or
*one wife at a time

so, was polygamy common in the new testament church, making it necessary to make sure that elders only had one wife at a time, because the rest of the men could have multiple wives?

Seems an odd conclusion, in another thread, we are saying that fornication makes two people one flesh in the sight of God.

Yet we know that there was polygamy in the OT, were two people one flesh, one at a time?

Or, is all that really matters is that the (wife/wives) is/are a virgin so that the man can make sure the kids are his, and if she cheats he kicks her to the curb and gets another one to make sure the kids are his?

because women are a commodity right? but men can fornicate, have multiple wives (one at a time) and be the Pastor no problem?

Well in answer to a tiny part of this...paternity fraud is a major issue today.


I've seen some reports that say 10 to 15% of paternity tested shows the husband is not the father.


Would there be more concern if there was an epidemic of infants in the hospital having their IDs switched after birth and going home with mother's that aren't theirs?


As far as women being a commodity, in women's eyes, men can be as well.


Instead of their sexuality being a commodity it is men's resources.


Woman caught in adultry but gets half her estranged husband's stuff and moves on to another guy? Or woman?


In the UK there was a case of a couple that when they were married they were poor. 20 years after their divorce the ex husband starts a business and the ex wife takes him to court 20 years AFTER their divorce and gets awarded compensation as if he had started the business during their marriage.


See, women are NOT powerless because they wield the power of the State and the State enforces it's will at gunpoint.


I said all that to say this, the dynamics and power distribution are HUGELY disproportionate from how it was in the OT and NT.


Sorry... early morning half asleep rant....

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Bringing this over from the Debate section for more exposure and discussion. A poster wrote this:

I was wanting to get some feedback on remarriage after divorce. There was someone I know who made a statement that if you are remarried with a living spouse then you must leave your second(third, fourth, etc.) and either be reconciled to the first or remain single. Although I dismissed this on the grounds of it being illogical especially when children are involved.

I don't have any scriptural guidelines to give definitive answers on the subject. Jesus did say it was adultery to remarry those divorced or put away. Does their second marriage cease being adultery when the person repents or does repentance require termination of the adulterous relationship? Also, Paul makes reference that it is better to marry than to burn. That being said if a divorcee is struggling in their flesh with being single wouldn't it be better to be living in fidelity than to be tempted to fornicate.

What if there spouse leaves them because of their Christian conversion? Are they to remain unmarried throughout the remainder of their life? Some of this seems a bit harsh to me. Although, I understand that God does not want us to have license to divorce... but as a preacher/teacher I want to lead people to live godly lives.

Appreciate any input

To which I replied:

Difficult subject. However, about being reconciled to the first spouse:

Deuteronomy 24:1-4 KJV When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house. (2) And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife. (3) And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife; (4) Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

And:

There is the argument that Jesus disallowed all divorce with one exception. However, there is the counter argument that Jesus disallowed "putting away", which is technically separate from "divorce".

There are two things to consider: putting away, and divorce. Putting away is when a husband send his wife out of the house and says "I am no longer your husband, I am no longer responsible to or for you." Moses required a "writ of divorce" or "bill of divorcement" in such cases. Thus, in order to put away his wife, a man had to give her a paper stating he had dissolved the marriage contract. This would prove that she was divorced, and would allow her to re-marry without the new husband being accusable of adultery with her first husband's wife. This of course enabled women who were put away to find another husband and have someone to take care of them so they didn't starve as a homeless vagabond or spend the rest of their years at Mom and Dad's house in artificial widowhood.

Jesus said Moses allowed a bill of divorce because of the hardness of people's hearts. Apparently, he knew there would be men who were buttheads and kick their wives to the curb, so he made an allowance to protect the woman in such cases by requiring a written proof of divorce, rather than just a separation ("putting away").

There are some who say that Jesus did not actually say all divorce results in adultery, but rather that putting away (without the divorce paper) would. The difference hinges on the meaning of two Greek words, which in the KJV were given the same English translation, thus (they say) obscuring the actual issues.

Matthew 5:32 KJV But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

The words "put away" and "divorced" are actually the same Greek word, apoluo, which literally means "loosed from" and refers to the separation. There is another, different Greek word for "divorce" which refers to being put away with a divorce writ. So, the argument goes, Jesus is condemning "putting away" as causing adultery, not necessarily divorce. the exception clause is "for fornication" which means a man discovers his bride is not a virgin. He may then put her away (annul the marriage) without requiring a divorce writ (which involves witnesses) and neither incurs nor causes any guilt. Joseph was minded to put away Mary privately when she was discovered to be pregnant, because ... well, for obvious reasons. (Of course, Mary had not been guilty of fornication, but Joseph had no way of knowing that until the angel told him the facts.)

This interpretation results in the following:

1. The law of God is not suddenly changed by Jesus' statement. If Jesus had suddenly disallowed all divorce as resulting in adultery, people who were not in sin prior to His statement suddenly found themselves in sin. All divorcees who had remarried and all who had married divorcees were now all of a sudden committing adultery, whereas prior to His statement they were not. This also prevents the accusation that Jesus had changed or abolished the law on the subject of divorce and adultery, which Jesus said He did not come to do. (It is one thing to expand the law to highlight the spiritual aspects, it is another thing to make unlawful what was explicitly lawful previously.)

2. Paul's statements that a person who is "loosed from a spouse" may marry without committing sin is in keeping with both Moses and Christ (1 Cor 7:27-29).

3. It provides for mercy for those who were divorced by their spouses. It is a fact that just as in Bible times, so today, there are hard-hearted people, and by requiring a divorce writ for those who would put away their spouses the one put away is protected. God obviously does not like or prefer divorce, but knowing what jerks humans can be He put in place a mechanism where the put away spouse's future was protected, so that divorce wasn't the end of life.

4. The exception clause is limited to premarital fornication. One who expects to marry a virgin, and then finds out she is not, is not bound to marry her. (If, of course, he is pleased to dwell with her anyway, then he cannot come back some time later and use it as an excuse to get rid of her.) EDIT: the exception clause is limited to "porneia" or fornication, which would include premarital immorality but also any forbidden relations (incest, heathens, etc).

5. The exception clause rules out adultery. Under the law there was no mechanism for getting a divorce on the grounds your spouse cheated on you. Rather, if adultery could be proven, the result was capital punishment, not divorce. And if a charge was levied, and could not be proven according to the law, then the one making the charge could potentially be liable to execution themselves for being a "false witness". Nobody under the law ever sought divorce on the grounds of adultery, at least not publicly. (However, a man might for example divorce his wife for "other reasons" so as not to publicly accuse the woman of adultery, creating the need for a felony investigation.)

There are, however, some problems with this approach:

1. It makes Jesus providing no new information about the command and law of God on the subject of marriage and divorce except that a man might put away his espoused wife if he discovered she was not a virgin. But arguably this was already the way things were, hence Jesus provided no new information about divorce at all. (It may, however, be argued he was saying that once betrothed nothing could end the betrothal except the fornication exception, in contrast to certain Pharisaic teachings on divorce.)

2. It makes Jesus not actually answer the question He was asked. He was not asked about putting away during the betrothal, but about divorce. This is not insurmountable, though, as Jesus often answered His adversaries in ways they did not expect or desire. But it is a definite objection that would need to be addressed.

3. It tends to give wiggle-room for divorce, and would tend to encourage - rather than discourage - divorce. If divorce is seen as a possible and lawful option, it is more likely to be taken than if it is believed to be utterly disallowed.

Any thoughts?

Any thoughts???

[Aquila]

I want to say up front that I am a divorcee. Regarding divorce and remarriage...

- I believe that divorce is always a sin. God hates divorce. I side with the Catholic take on the exception clause. The exception clause specifies "fornication" and not "adultery" because it was during betrothal that a woman could be put away discretely for failure to remain sexually chaste and the man be able to marry another (see the example of Mary and Joseph).

- I believe that remarriage after one has been divorced is always adultery. It is always a sin that adulterates the original covenant and one flesh relationship that one had with their original spouse. God's desire is that divorced spouses be reconciled. Remarriage prevents reconciliation, thus illustrating that second marriages are equally binding.

- For men, the adultery of the second marriage disqualifies them from serving in leadership.

- Although an individual who has been divorced and remarried is in an adulterous union and is disqualified from church leadership, there is mercy and grace through the blood of Jesus for those who humbly seek God for cleansing and the salvation of the soul. God can forgive, bless, and give beauty for ashes, and second marriages can become more blessed than the first. But this is only attained through God's grace as accessed through sincere contrition.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by TakingDominion

I know Bro Carroll. I like Bro Carroll. I've even listened to some of his teaching on the subject. However, it's hard to imagine that he can be objective about it, given that he's divorced himself.

I hope we are NOT going to discuss Brother Carroll here.

[Apostolic1ness]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Paul said that a man becomes one flesh with a prostitute if he joins with her bodily:

1 Corinthians 6:16
Or do you not know that he who is joined to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, “The two will become one flesh.”

The "one flesh" relationship is established whenever people share their bodies.

Matt 19:5-6 speaks of a man leaving his father and mother and cleaving to his wife:verse 6 says what therefore God hath joined together, let no man put asunder....surely this is speaking of the marriage covenant causing two to become one flesh and not the act of sex...God joins man and woman in covenant not fornication..

Ephesians 5:30-32 for we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31 for this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 this is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

we are in covenant relationship with Christ just as a husband and wife become one in covenant relationship with each other. we are members of his body through covenant.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I want to say up front that I am a divorcee. Regarding divorce and remarriage...

- I believe that divorce is always a sin. God hates divorce. I side with the Catholic take on the exception clause. The exception clause specifies "fornication" and not "adultery" because it was during betrothal that a woman could be put away discretely for failure to remain sexually chaste and the man be able to marry another (see the example of Mary and Joseph).

- I believe that remarriage after one has been divorced is always adultery. It is always a sin that adulterates the original covenant and one flesh relationship that one had with their original spouse. God's desire is that divorced spouses be reconciled. Remarriage prevents reconciliation, thus illustrating that second marriages are equally binding.

- For men, the adultery of the second marriage disqualifies them from serving in leadership.

- Although an individual who has been divorced and remarried is in an adulterous union and is disqualified from church leadership, there is mercy and grace through the blood of Jesus for those who humbly seek God for cleansing and the salvation of the soul. God can forgive, bless, and give beauty for ashes, and second marriages can become more blessed than the first. But this is only attained through God's grace as accessed through sincere contrition.

Adultery is only a sin on the part of the one who committed it. The guilty party was executed in the OT. The partner that remained obviously was free to remarry.

It works the same now except we dont kill the offender but if there is no repentance the person is dead to the covenant.

[jediwill83]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I want to say up front that I am a divorcee. Regarding divorce and remarriage...

- I believe that divorce is always a sin. God hates divorce. I side with the Catholic take on the exception clause. The exception clause specifies "fornication" and not "adultery" because it was during betrothal that a woman could be put away discretely for failure to remain sexually chaste and the man be able to marry another (see the example of Mary and Joseph).

- I believe that remarriage after one has been divorced is always adultery. It is always a sin that adulterates the original covenant and one flesh relationship that one had with their original spouse. God's desire is that divorced spouses be reconciled. Remarriage prevents reconciliation, thus illustrating that second marriages are equally binding.

- For men, the adultery of the second marriage disqualifies them from serving in leadership.

- Although an individual who has been divorced and remarried is in an adulterous union and is disqualified from church leadership, there is mercy and grace through the blood of Jesus for those who humbly seek God for cleansing and the salvation of the soul. God can forgive, bless, and give beauty for ashes, and second marriages can become more blessed than the first. But this is only attained through God's grace as accessed through sincere contrition.

Bro B mentioned that God wrote Israel a letter of divorcement after their infidelity and we know that He turned to the Gentiles, does God's relationship with the Gentiles make God an adulterer?


Or as Gentiles we are grafted in...well...grafted in with the Jews is He going back to a wife He divorced?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by jediwill83

Well after being cheated on multiple times I pulled the trigger on mine myself.


Had a wife that went behind my back and besmirched my character, accused me of beating her and causing her to miscarriage among other things EXTREMELY out of character for me and then after the second round of cheating I had enough.



I tried...I REALLY tried to make it work.


If that disqualifies me for ministry...so be it.


Not really looking for a "ministry" or position...man I'm just a guy who has major flaws trying to take care of a family.

Man, I've been through that mess.

My ex-wife wanted an open marriage. She made friends on the "swinger" scene. But I loved her. Loved her with all my being. I was willing to tolerate, understand, and be there for this "phase" she was going through. I was convinced that I could love her out of the lifestyle. Well, truth be told, I couldn't. One day I confronted her about lies and deception that was going on. And as I pleaded for counseling, she pulled the trigger and told me that she wanted a divorce.

She slandered my character, lied about me, claimed abuse, etc. Ended up with spousal support and child support. Yep, I ended up paying for her wild weekend excursions to her "swinger parties". Thank the blessed court system.

If I had pulled the trigger and made the case, maybe I would have fared better. But the pastor I was talking to at the time told me to try to reconcile. He even advised me not to put her away, but to make her do the deed if she were serious. Man, was she serious. She was out for it all. I shouldn't have followed his advice. I should have declared war on her.

I just don't feel safe when I think about civil marriage any more. After seeing how it all works, I firmly believe it is best not to become entangled with the civil marriage system. There is no real security in civil marriage any more. You're better off securing your interests by not participating.

And, if remarriage disqualifies me, I could care less. I have no interest in being behind a pulpit anymore.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by jediwill83

Bro B mentioned that God wrote Israel a letter of divorcement after their infidelity and we know that He turned to the Gentiles, does God's relationship with the Gentiles make God an adulterer?


Or as Gentiles we are grafted in...well...grafted in with the Jews is He going back to a wife He divorced?

God is God. He is no more an adulterer for divorcing Israel and marrying the church than He is a murder for deep frying Sodom and Gomorrah. God is God. He has the authority to do as He desires.

It is always important to realize that man and God are not equals.