Determining which biblical laws apply today.

[Esaias]

So, once again since "the law is done away with" Christians are under no obligation to obey God. And it isn't enough that many try to substitute a "new testament" code of law for that pesky old testament code of law.

And after decades of preaching the law is abolished, we act surprised when sin is rampant and sinners don't repent? Why should they? After all, if there is no law, there is no sin...

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

hmm, forever? your post would indicate "forever." This seems like a...naive? maybe, view of salvation--which it seems God does not even determine until "the end."
"neither do I condemn (judge) you; go, and be sinless." Christ
seems like there is a central concept that is not being grasped here, if a pastor feels qualified to do what Christ would not. Just lobbing grenades here, yes, there is a sense in which i get you.

Why would you even ask if it is forever? As son as one repent sincerely there is no backsliding. So what are you saying?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

So, once again since "the law is done away with" Christians are under no obligation to obey God. And it isn't enough that many try to substitute a "new testament" code of law for that pesky old testament code of law.

And after decades of preaching the law is abolished, we act surprised when sin is rampant and sinners don't repent? Why should they? After all, if there is no law, there is no sin...

That wasn't the problem. The problem is presenting the gospel like law keeping and not grasping what Paul said. Sin is still sin. But the answer is not more rule book. It is Romans 6:13.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Sean

Okay, I will rephrase that.....

What standard is used to cause a saint that is sinning to become a backslider?

This standard?......1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Someone else, i forget who, noted the entire concept of law still in effect out not is wrong. I now agree. Law is a reflection of what is right and wrong. No man can keep it in self power, But it is right. Even Galatians 5 sites of law as a standard that walking in the Spirit causes one to fulfill without even having coerced self to keep it. What law can't do is what Good can through the cross. Romans 8:3. So, it's not if law is still in effect or not, but rather that law is correct and always will be. And Grace does not cause anyone to violate it even though it tells us to stop trying in will power to keep it.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Someone else, i forget who, noted the entire concept of law still in effect out not is wrong. I now agree. Law is a reflection of what is right and wrong. No man can keep it in self power, But it is right. Even Galatians 5 sites of law as a standard that walking in the Spirit causes one to fulfill without even having coerced self to keep it. What law can't do is what Good can through the cross. Romans 8:3. So, it's not if law is still in effect or not, but rather that law is correct and always will be. And Grace does not cause anyone to violate it even though it tells us to stop trying in will power to keep it.

The Law is ONLY A REFLECTION(implying not a physical reality)???

Is this what this verses says....4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Is this verse present tense or past tense???
Does John tell the Church that the Law is a REFLECTION???

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Sean

The Law is ONLY A REFLECTION(implying not a physical reality)???

Is this what this verses says....4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Is this verse present tense or past tense???
Does John tell the Church that the Law is a REFLECTION???

That's not what i meant. Forget it.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Why would you even ask if it is forever? As son as one repent sincerely there is no backsliding. So what are you saying?

hmm i guess what i meant was that the implied focus is on 'judgement' here; condemnation of sin. in order to be condemned, one must be judged. there is no other way. Yet this is not how Grace operates, right? (um, how can i reveal to you that it is always to sin and death that we run... )
be creation centered, imo

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

hmm i guess what i meant was that the implied focus is on 'judgement' here; condemnation of sin. in order to be condemned, one must be judged. there is no other way. Yet this is not how Grace operates, right? (um, how can i reveal to you that it is always to sin and death that we run... )
be creation centered, imo

I don't believe the condemnation in Rom 8:1 is of that sort. It is a self-condemnation from the conscience.

[Aquila]

I believe that only the ordinances in the ritual, ceremonial, and civil law of Moses is abolished. (Ephesians 2:15; Colossians 2:14-16)

However, the moral law of God (the Ten Commandments) is eternal and still stands to condemn sin and judge the wicked and unbelieving. (Luke 16:17; Matthew 5:18).

The work of Christ brought atonement and propitiation for all who believe in Him as it relates to the entire law. However, Christians are not lawless. Christ fulfilled the law by teaching us the universal principle behind the law and how to therefore more perfectly fulfill the law. That principle is love. This is embodied in two commandments:

Matthew 22:36-40 King James Version (KJV)
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

We, who are born again, now fulfill the law of God that still stands to condemn by loving God and loving others as ourselves. In this, we fulfill the law more perfectly. The law cannot and doesn't make one righteous. Because while love fulfills the law (and goes infinitely beyond it's requirements) the law cannot and doesn't require love, which perfects our faith.

For example, I can choose not to steal from my neighbor. In doing so, I've fulfilled the law. However, just because I chose not to steal from my neighbor, it doesn't mean that I love him. Yet, if I truly love my neighbor, I'll not even consider stealing from him. Herewith, love fulfills the righteousness of the law... but the law doesn't fulfill love. So, no man can be justified by the law. One most simply surrender to grace and live by the law of love. In this, they fulfill the whole of the moral law. (Romans 13:8-10; Galatians 5:14).

Romans 13:8-10 King James Version (KJV)
8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Galatians 5:14 King James Version (KJV)
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I don't believe the condemnation in Rom 8:1 is of that sort. It is a self-condemnation from the conscience.

ah, good point. That is surely the harder to overcome.