The Truth, in Their own Words

[bbyrd009]

Originally Posted by larrylyates

While you are busy finding alternate translations to the various quotes from the koran, I noticed you chose not to respond to the documented facts presented by Pliny in post #23. Interesting.

Oh, I've read the Qur'an; I'm re-reading it now--and your characterizations of it are completely heinous, sorry.

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by larrylyates

FACT: I used the first random translation I found electronically and note with amusement your lack of measurable or value-added comment on the "corrections".

I found my quotes in precisely the same way. There appear to be a number of conflicting interpretations/translations of the koran. We have in fact, a similar problem with translations of the Bible. That being said, there is nothing remotely "amusing," in any part of this discussion. The facts are in evidence and can be independently verified. As previously stated:

Several will respond to this and try to say it isn't so, that this is untrue. The Internet makes any illusion along those lines, impossible. Ask yourself, what sort of person would attempt such a defense in the first place. What kind of person would do that? What motive would they have in defending such evil? The answer to that is self-evident!
To say that islam is a peaceful religion, as some would try and deceive, ignores the facts of their own admission. Dr. Klein has already enumerated many disturbing passages from the muslim "holy book." Readers can find more at the following link:

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...ad.php?t=43101

These are not statements made up in order to make islam "look bad." It already IS evil. These are verses from their very own book. Before you accept the lie that "anyone can take verses out of context and make them say anything they want." Take any of the verses from Dr. Klein's list or from mine and run them through your search engine. Then look at the simple truth for yourself.

Then you would not have a problem if I challenged you to back to your source / then and copy and paste the exact texts, in context, that I pasted then demonstrate how those texts say what you said that they say.

Otherwise and if you cannot do this after what you said in post 1 consider yourself charged with "attempted deceit" LOL

I responded to Pliney as well.

[larrylyates]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

Then you would not have a problem if I challenged you to back to your source / then and copy and paste the exact texts, in context, that I pasted then demonstrate how those texts say what you said that they say.

Otherwise and if you cannot do this after what you said in post 1 consider yourself charged with "attempted deceit" LOL

I responded to Pliney as well.

There is no need for what would be an exercise in futility. Why not simply take one of the verses as an object lesson?

Qur’an 9:29-Fight against Christians and Jews ”until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.” This is the first quote on my list of verses "taken out of context." Following my own advice and placing it into Google, we find the following:

"The consensus opinion of Muslim scholars justifies the imposition of tribute on non-Muslims who fall under the Muslim rule in terms of the verse 9:29 of the Qur'an.[1] This verse has been thus an important source of the Islamic laws on dhimmis.

Different translations of the verse read as:[2]

SAHIH INTERNATIONAL: Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.

MUHSIN KHAN: Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allah, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

PICKTHAL: Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.

YUSUF ALI: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

SHAKIR: Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

DR. GHALI: Fight the ones who do not believe in Allah nor in the Last Day, and do not prohibit whatever Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, and do not practice (Literally: to have as a religion) the religion of Truth-from among the ones to whom the Book was brought-until they give the tax out of hand (i.e., by a ready money payment, or in token of submission) and have been belittled.."



Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-Tawba_29

Some people mistrust wikipedia, with some justification. fortunately, in this case the documentation is provided and can be readily verified by anyone.

Here is another translation:9:29 Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which has been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of truth, [even if they are] of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

source:http://theamericanmuslim.org (An islamic website)

One more and we'll call it a day:
9:29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Source:http://www.muslimaccess.com/quraan/arabic/009.asp (The complete koran, on a muslim website. This site is readily searchable and contains one of the most accepted translations of the koran.)

I have no need to "demonstrate how those texts say what you said that they say."

I am simple posting exactly what the text says, as can be verified by anyone with very little effort. Every quote can be seen to be accurate in precisely the same way, and from actual muslim sources. There is no need for further discussion. If anyone questions the truth, it is right there on the pages of muslim websites and their own copies of the koran. Google is a very handy tool!

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by larrylyates

There is no need for what would be an exercise in futility. Why not simply take one of the verses as an object lesson?

Qur’an 9:29-Fight against Christians and Jews ”until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.” This is the first quote on my list of verses "taken out of context." Following my own advice and placing it into Google, we find the following:

"The consensus opinion of Muslim scholars justifies the imposition of tribute on non-Muslims who fall under the Muslim rule in terms of the verse 9:29 of the Qur'an.[1] This verse has been thus an important source of the Islamic laws on dhimmis.

Different translations of the verse read as:[2]

SAHIH INTERNATIONAL: Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.

MUHSIN KHAN: Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allah, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

PICKTHAL: Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.

YUSUF ALI: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

SHAKIR: Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

DR. GHALI: Fight the ones who do not believe in Allah nor in the Last Day, and do not prohibit whatever Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, and do not practice (Literally: to have as a religion) the religion of Truth-from among the ones to whom the Book was brought-until they give the tax out of hand (i.e., by a ready money payment, or in token of submission) and have been belittled.."



Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-Tawba_29

Some people mistrust wikipedia, with some justification. fortunately, in this case the documentation is provided and can be readily verified by anyone.

Here is another translation:9:29 Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which has been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of truth, [even if they are] of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

source:http://theamericanmuslim.org (An islamic website)

One more and we'll call it a day:
9:29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Source:http://www.muslimaccess.com/quraan/arabic/009.asp (The complete koran, on a muslim website. This site is readily searchable and contains one of the most accepted translations of the koran.)

I have no need to "demonstrate how those texts say what you said that they say."

I am simple posting exactly what the text says, as can be verified by anyone with very little effort. Every quote can be seen to be accurate in precisely the same way, and from actual muslim sources. There is no need for further discussion. If anyone questions the truth, it is right there on the pages of muslim websites and their own copies of the koran. Google is a very handy tool!

It is a handy tool. According to your source, as I said:

Surah At-Tawbah (Arabic: سورة التوبة, Sūratu at-Tawbah, "The Repentance") also known as al-Bara'ah "the Ultimatum" in many hadith is the ninth chapter of the Qur'an, with 129 verses. It is one of the last Madinan Suras. It is the only Sura of the Qur'an that does not begin with the bismillah. The starting verses of this sura were revealed at the time of war, the context being the Battle of Tabuk.

As to the Jizyah:

Under Islamic law, jizya or jizyah (Arabic: جزية‎ ǧizyah IPA: [dʒizja]; Ottoman Turkish: cizye is a per capita tax levied on a section of an Islamic state's non-Muslim citizens, who meet certain criteria. The tax is and was to be levied on able-bodied adult males of military age and affording power[1] (but with specific exemptions).[2][3] From the point of view of the Muslim rulers, jizya was a material proof of the non-Muslims' acceptance of subjection to the state and its laws, "just as for the inhabitants it was a concrete continuation of the taxes paid to earlier regimes."[4] In return, non-Muslim citizens were permitted to practice their faith, to enjoy a measure of communal autonomy, to be entitled to the Muslim state's protection from outside aggression, and to be exempted from military service and the zakat taxes obligatory upon Muslim citizens.[5][6]

[larrylyates]

This discussion is over. The point has been made with clear and indisputable facts, news reports and references from the Koran all of which can be readily checked and verified as accurate.

If there is anyone who still has lingering questions I refer you to the following link:

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...=1#post1250387

In this Thread you will find documented a litany of terror spanning decades. The dates and events are meticulously recorded for all to see. This Thread is awesome! Seekerman has truly done some excellent research and presents it in such a way that the facts speak for themselves. They speak so loudly that none can respond except in silent sorrow. I consider it the final word on the subject. Nothing more needs to be said!

[bbyrd009]

what discussion? This was a diatribe that was beneath comment for a believer from the very beginning--ya, nevermind the truth--refer me to a link.

You should be ashamed of yourself. You brazenly endorse 'indulgences' and the Spanish Inquisition; and the Crusades, in ignorant default. Wonder of wonders, you represent the current largest dealer in arms in the world--you represent the antiChrist, and may be understood in several passages of Scripture. You are not practicing Love, in any aspect.

Thankfully (most of) the Muslims I know are kind, generous, and forgiving, and you will probably not get what you deserve from them. You need only fear God.

[larrylyates]

Originally Posted by bbyrd009

what discussion? This was a diatribe that was beneath comment for a believer from the very beginning--ya, nevermind the truth--refer me to a link.

You should be ashamed of yourself. You brazenly endorse 'indulgences' and the Spanish Inquisition; and the Crusades, in ignorant default. Wonder of wonders, you represent the current largest dealer in arms in the world--you represent the antiChrist, and may be understood in several passages of Scripture. You are not practicing Love, in any aspect.

Thankfully (most of) the Muslims I know are kind, generous, and forgiving, and you will probably not get what you deserve from them. You need only fear God.

For the record I am completely against the RCC and all of their history. I do not in anyway consider them to be Christian. They are, and have always been an idolatrous, pagan, religion that has never represented Christ or the teachings of the Bible. Their record of evil is to be disdained by any Bible believer.

That being said, to state that Christianity is the most violent religion, is simply ludicrous. The atrocities of the past lay at the feet of papal Rome, NOT at the door of the Church.

The record of islam speaks for itself. To deny that is simply ridiculous.

[bbyrd009]

Oh, a pox on your sweeping, ignorant pronouncements.

Originally Posted by larrylyates

For the record I am completely against the RCC and all of their history...

yet you call Sunday "the Lord's day," and go roll eggs and buy bunnies--the icons of 'fertility'--during Passover.

Muslims and Jews got along fine until your ilk came along--thankfully, they still, by and large, do.

Of course, wherever ignorant capitalist haters like you have overrun Christianity--and common sense--thoughtless, Murdock-inspired diatribes, and links, that ignore your life expectancy in Watts while pointing a finger at...what, you do not even know--there will be vacuous sound-bites to titillate and terrify the sheep. You just keep at it, in defiance of Scripture, which if I were to quote it to you, you would just continue to ignore, or misunderstand.

[Esaias]

If a Christian refuses to pay a tax (jizyah) in return for permission to be a Christian, then what?

[Jito463]

Originally Posted by bbyrd009

Oh, a pox on your sweeping, ignorant pronouncements.
yet you call Sunday "the Lord's day," and go roll eggs and buy bunnies--the icons of 'fertility'--during Passover.

Now who's making "sweeping, ignorant pronouncements"? What difference does it make what day we honor the Lord on? Whether it be Sunday, Saturday or Tuesday is irrelevant (unless you can point me to a passage of Scripture that says what day we should honor God on). So long as we have a Sabbath day set aside, that is what matters. And as far as Easter goes, I know I don't "roll eggs" or "buy bunnies", so how do you know larrylyates does?

Originally Posted by bbyrd009

Muslims and Jews got along fine until your ilk came along--thankfully, they still, by and large, do.

I urge you to show me some evidence of this. On an individual, case-by-case basis you might find some proof, but on the whole this was not true (and never will be, sadly). Islam versus Judaism goes back to Abram and his attempts to speed up God's timetable (leading to the birth of Ishmael). It's brother against brother (spiritually speaking). Cain and Abel all over again, only on a larger scale. There has never been and never will be true peace between the two.

Originally Posted by bbyrd009

Of course, wherever ignorant capitalist haters like you have overrun Christianity--and common sense--thoughtless, Murdock-inspired diatribes, and links, that ignore your life expectancy in Watts while pointing a finger at...what, you do not even know--there will be vacuous sound-bites to titillate and terrify the sheep. You just keep at it, in defiance of Scripture, which if I were to quote it to you, you would just continue to ignore, or misunderstand.

The problem is not with Muslims, it's with Islam. Just as I don't hate Catholics, but I despise Catholicism (and Mormonism, and all other perversions of Christianity). Are there peaceful Muslims? Sure. Does that mean the teachings of Islam are peaceful? No.

*EDIT*
I would like to point out, for the record, that while I do not in any way condone the Crusades, it was incited by Muslims attacking the Catholic people and killing those who would not convert.