Different God?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by ReformedDave

But that's really not my question? It's not one of 'significance'. It's one of 'essence'. Does the trinitarian worship a different God than the oneness? Does the conception change the Diety?

Is it possible for someone to think George Bush is an idiot and another to believe he is just a globalist working to marginalize the US and still be speaking of the same person? Makes sense right?

[TheLayman]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

The point I'm trying to make is that Jesus and the Jews KNEW who they worshipped. I can't find anywhere in the OT where they worshipped God as a Trinity; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Like I said in a previous post on this thread I'm not sure belief in the Trinity condemns anyone.

Mizpeh:

Just a quick note. John 4:22 has nothing to do with the nature of God. Jesus was speaking to a Samaritan and their is a history between the Jews and the Samaritans (there is bad blood between them). Perhaps you know that not only was it amazing that Jesus was talking to a woman, but it was a Samaritan woman, and to drink from their utensil was to become unclean according to the law (legalism) of the elders. If you understand something about the Samaritans it will truly amplify the story of the good Samaritan. Rather than me write about that, any decent Bible dictionary or encyclopedia will be able to give you some information on that.

The fact I want to emphasize is that the Samaritans only used the Pentateuch (the rejected the prophets and all else) and this mixed with very great idolatry. So, Jesus was making reference to their ignorance. They worshipped in ignorance, the Jews did not. This is why the Jews, especially their spiritual leaders should have known Jesus was the Messiah. Obviously we know the end of that particular story, they had the Son of God crucified, so don't be to quick to read into John 4:22 that the Jews knew in the sense that I think you are using it.

Not that the Son of God did not try to reveal the truth to them, a truth which did not conflict with the OT and certainly not with their theological questions and mysteries. Apparently the spiritual leaders decided to stop believing in the progressive revelation of God and instead chose their own traditions and rejection of Christ. Just something to think about, I don't really have a great deal of time to become deeply involved in more discussions.

Blessings,
TheLayman

[Neck]

Originally Posted by ReformedDave

Is the God of Trinitarians a different One from the Oneness adherants?

Please. I really don't want to turn this into a debate on the two positions. We realize that there are very distinct differences and either one or both positions are incorrect.

We both would say we recongnize that there is an aspect of incomprehensibility and mystery about God. While He is immanant He is also transcendant. Our knowledge, at best, is incomplete and finite....and will always be.

If one has adopted the 'wrong' view of God isn't it still the same God? Mistaken? You bet. Is this a sin of making God into an idol? Some on both sides of the issue would say so. I tend to lean that way. From what I've read David Benard would disagree. He'd say that we both worship the same God though one has a mistaken conception of Him.

What say ye and more importantly, why?

The reality of it all is God knows who he is...

It is we humans that have made him complicated to explain to each other...

He is the same God...

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

The point I'm trying to make is that Jesus and the Jews KNEW who they worshipped. I can't find anywhere in the OT where they worshipped God as a Trinity; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Like I said in a previous post on this thread I'm not sure belief in the Trinity condemns anyone.

Gottya!

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Is it possible for someone to think George Bush is an idiot and another to believe he is just a globalist working to marginalize the US and still be speaking of the same person? Makes sense right?

I get your point and I agree, even though wouldn't have put it in those terms.

[berkeley]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Well let's ask. I will start. I believe in the Oneness because I believe it is the best explanation of what the bible teaches. In fact what I believe is not exactly what my first or current pastor taught. My knowledge and views of the Godhead were mostly influenced by personal study, dialoging with Trinitarians, reading the works of other Apostolics like Jason Dulle and David Bernard

I like Jason's stuff.. not that big a fan of Bernard..

Originally Posted by Berkeley

I like Jason's stuff.. not that big a fan of Bernard..

Me neither...

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Berkeley

I like Jason's stuff.. not that big a fan of Bernard..

I don't mind Bernard but I really really think he needs to re-write some of his stuff on the godhead to be more clearer in a theological sense as far as meaning of words and especially in light of what others believe and what words others use. For example, do we believe God is a person? And if so is Jesus a separate human person or is He the same Person of God just with a Human nature

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by TheLayman

Mizpeh:



The fact I want to emphasize is that the Samaritans only used the Pentateuch (the rejected the prophets and all else) and this mixed with very great idolatry. So, Jesus was making reference to their ignorance. They worshipped in ignorance, the Jews did not. This is why the Jews, especially their spiritual leaders should have known Jesus was the Messiah. Obviously we know the end of that particular story, they had the Son of God crucified, so don't be to quick to read into John 4:22 that the Jews knew in the sense that I think you are using it.

Not that the Son of God did not try to reveal the truth to them, a truth which did not conflict with the OT and certainly not with their theological questions and mysteries. Apparently the spiritual leaders decided to stop believing in the progressive revelation of God and instead chose their own traditions and rejection of Christ. Just something to think about, I don't really have a great deal of time to become deeply involved in more discussions.

Blessings,
TheLayman

John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

TLM,

I know you're busy but I wanted to make one comment in response to your post.

Jesus said "we know" concerning the knowledge of God that the Jews and He himself had. He didn't say "I know" what I worship. Jesus didn't try to explain a progressive revelation of God (the Trinity) to the woman at the well nor did he tell her that his Jewish brethren were not complete in their knowledge of God. He didn't bring into question whatsoever their current understanding of God.

Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

Here is another opportunity for Jesus to reveal the Trinity and bring his brethren into a more perfect knowledge of God but he did not. What Jesus doesn't say speaks very loudly to me.

Originally Posted by ReformedDave

Is the God of Trinitarians a different One from the Oneness adherants?

Please. I really don't want to turn this into a debate on the two positions. We realize that there are very distinct differences and either one or both positions are incorrect.

We both would say we recongnize that there is an aspect of incomprehensibility and mystery about God. While He is immanant He is also transcendant. Our knowledge, at best, is incomplete and finite....and will always be.

If one has adopted the 'wrong' view of God isn't it still the same God? Mistaken? You bet. Is this a sin of making God into an idol? Some on both sides of the issue would say so. I tend to lean that way. From what I've read David Benard would disagree. He'd say that we both worship the same God though one has a mistaken conception of Him.

What say ye and more importantly, why?

It's still the same God. J. I. Packer said in Knowing God that having an incorrect view of God was idolatry.