God does not forgive, because he never condemned.

[theglory7]

What I'm getting from you loud and clear is that God forgives, right. Then based on that statement, God has condemned us for an offense against God. Is that a safe assumption of what you believe to be true mfblume?

[mfblume]

Regarding your former post, I know you posted it and did not make that claim, but only asked what we thought.

I make the claim that God does forgive simply because the bible said he does. Period.

To talk about WHY He must forgive is another question. But the question as to whether that statement you presented is right or wrong, I claim it is wrong simply because the bible says God forgives. It has nothing to do with whether or not He condemns us. So, condemning us may not even be the factor behind the reason God forgives.

Originally Posted by theglory7

What I'm getting from you loud and clear is that God forgives, right.

Not from me. From the bible. The Bible says God forgives. Do you agree with the bible?

Then based on that statement, God has condemned us for an offense against God. Is that a safe assumption of what you believe to be true mfblume?

So the question is "WHY does God forgive?" Is it because WE are condemned, or is there another reason He must forgive us? Is this what you are are really asking?

Do you agree God forgives? I ask this because we just have to lay these things out first, since no manner of reasoning can remove the fact that the bible says God forgives. It only makes me wonder if you believe the bible is correct, because if you do not, then your agenda is to prove the bible incorrect. We do not share the same foundation of faith to even discuss this if you believe the bible is incorrect. Just wondering.

[theglory7]

This is what I believe: I believe that this statement is a paradox.

A paradox is a statement or group of statements that leads to a contradiction or a situation which defies intuition. The term is also used for an apparent contradiction that actually expresses a non-dual truth (cf. kōan, Catuskoti). Typically, the statements in question do not really imply the contradiction, the puzzling result is not really a contradiction, or the premises themselves are not all really true or cannot all be true together. The word paradox is often used interchangeably with contradiction. It is also used to describe situations that are ironic.[

I also believe that bible is full of paradoxes, hence discussion boards filled with debates that lead nowhere. The unfortunate thing is that most Christians only deal in absolutes. It's always a question of I'm write and your wrong, or this is the truth and that is not, my church is write and that one is wrong. Consider the almost infinite amount of denominations. And the beauty of it is, there are no 2 people who share the exact same faith even within the same denomination. I like that because then I can learn from everyone regardless of creed. My only hope is that you learned that not everything can be answered one-dimensionally, there are mysteries of our faith out there, and sometimes the answer is simply...........yep.

One love brother

[Timmy]

In the ordinary meaning of the word "forgive", there is an offended party and an offending party, and it is the offended party that decides whether to forgive the offending party. E.g.: I slap Mike in the face (for whatever reason that I don't need to go into. ). Later, I apologize to him, and he (the offended party) forgives me (the offending party).

Now, what about God's forgiveness? Does the ordinary usage and meaning of the word apply? If I steal from Mike, who is the offended party? Or are there two: Mike and God? Do both Mike and God have the option (based on whatever criteria they choose) to forgive me for stealing?

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by theglory7

This is what I believe: I believe that this statement is a paradox.

A paradox is a statement or group of statements that leads to a contradiction or a situation which defies intuition. The term is also used for an apparent contradiction that actually expresses a non-dual truth (cf. kōan, Catuskoti). Typically, the statements in question do not really imply the contradiction, the puzzling result is not really a contradiction, or the premises themselves are not all really true or cannot all be true together. The word paradox is often used interchangeably with contradiction. It is also used to describe situations that are ironic.[

I also believe that bible is full of paradoxes, hence discussion boards filled with debates that lead nowhere. The unfortunate thing is that most Christians only deal in absolutes. It's always a question of I'm write and your wrong, or this is the truth and that is not, my church is write and that one is wrong. Consider the almost infinite amount of denominations. And the beauty of it is, there are no 2 people who share the exact same faith even within the same denomination. I like that because then I can learn from everyone regardless of creed. My only hope is that you learned that not everything can be answered one-dimensionally, there are mysteries of our faith out there, and sometimes the answer is simply...........yep.

One love brother

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjZdHdd88jo

[theglory7]

That's funny.........

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by theglory7

This is what I believe: I believe that this statement is a paradox.

A paradox is a statement or group of statements that leads to a contradiction or a situation which defies intuition. The term is also used for an apparent contradiction that actually expresses a non-dual truth (cf. kōan, Catuskoti). Typically, the statements in question do not really imply the contradiction, the puzzling result is not really a contradiction, or the premises themselves are not all really true or cannot all be true together. The word paradox is often used interchangeably with contradiction. It is also used to describe situations that are ironic.[

I also believe that bible is full of paradoxes, hence discussion boards filled with debates that lead nowhere. The unfortunate thing is that most Christians only deal in absolutes. It's always a question of I'm write and your wrong, or this is the truth and that is not, my church is write and that one is wrong. Consider the almost infinite amount of denominations. And the beauty of it is, there are no 2 people who share the exact same faith even within the same denomination. I like that because then I can learn from everyone regardless of creed. My only hope is that you learned that not everything can be answered one-dimensionally, there are mysteries of our faith out there, and sometimes the answer is simply...........yep.

One love brother

Okay, that helps me understand where you are coming from. The logic required, I think, in dealing with the statement you proposed for opinion is to recognize that it demands we think the ONLY reason God forgives is because we were condemned by Him. There may be other reasons, but the bible never said God forgives because He condemned us. We do know He forgives though. Are there other possibilities that demand forgiveness from God? So the whole statement is not logical to begin with, I think.

God bless!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Timmy

In the ordinary meaning of the word "forgive", there is an offended party and an offending party, and it is the offended party that decides whether to forgive the offending party. E.g.: I slap Mike in the face (for whatever reason that I don't need to go into. ). Later, I apologize to him, and he (the offended party) forgives me (the offending party).

Now, what about God's forgiveness? Does the ordinary usage and meaning of the word apply? If I steal from Mike, who is the offended party? Or are there two: Mike and God? Do both Mike and God have the option (based on whatever criteria they choose) to forgive me for stealing?

That is a good point. Are there other reasons for forgiveness other than what comes to our minds first?

Someone recently said we condemned ourselves to, in turn, cause us to fall under God's condemnation. Hmmm...

[theglory7]

does my profile picture post

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by theglory7

does my profile picture post

Yep!