COGIC - Baptism in Jesus Name

[TRFrance]

Originally Posted by PraiseHymn

They say Pastor Simmons died of some type of cancer however rumors say otherwise. All I will say is that we will understand it better by and by if you know what I mean (meaning if wifey dies with this same type of "cancer" then it will be true as far as the rumors....and thats all I can say about that one). To be honest, it just sucks. I've never seen a man rise to fame so quick, was at the mountain top of his ministry and then DIE the way he did. Sad, just sad. (but we did give him a good 2 day homegoing.....one of the best I've been too in years, I'll post a clip of the dancing. I danced myself right into the funeral spray. The morticians were holding me up (pray for me cause I'm a crazy praiser lol)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWfQkgZAyiw

I think in all honesty these men get in where they can fit in. For instance, Huie Rogers came down and preached a revival at Citadel one year, he preached a hardcore Apostolic message, the born and raised COGIC folks were steaming mad. However Nathan Simmons was happy proclaiming that he baptised in "The Name". Then, trinitarians have mounted the podium and preached there God in 3 persons blessed trinity message, and Nathan Simmons just agreed right along with them. So again, I belive they get in where they fit in. People pleasers.

Lizza Pace is with El Bethel, thats Bishop Robert Evans former apostolic organization that he presided over before he died.

Murphy Pace is the only brother of the Pace Sisters (which includes LaShun Pace). The Pace's mother and father have a "old school" cogic church somewhere here in Georgia. They all are preachers kids.

The COGIC tolerate women preachers however they dont put them in the offices of Bishop. They limit them to Evangelist however they do recognize that there are women that are in pastorial roles (though far and few). Kinda like a "see no evil hear no evil" sort of doctrine.

Citadel has not changed there myspace page in a long time. Its a known fact they are not COGIC anymore.

Thanks for the info, bro.
Interesting, but a bit disgusting at the same time.

I have noticed some strange "cross-breeding" between some of the African-American Apostolic groups and COGIC for a while now. Some folk seem to change their doctrine like they're just changing their underwear. This "get in where you can fit in" mentality really disturbs me. Doctrinal purity doesnt seem to matter to some of these folks.

I did hear that "rumor" about the cancer-that-isnt-really-cancer that Simmons died of. Personally, I doubt its true. And his wife looks healthy anyway, so I doubt she's going to suffer from "the cancer" any time soon, but u never know, I guess. However, I think the family probably should have made a clear and unequivocal announcement of cause of death, just to clear the air. From what I can seee, itt doesnt look like that was done,and unfortunately that just feeds into the rumors and speculation.

[theoldpaths]

Originally Posted by 1399

The only way to reconcile Romans 10: 4 - 21 and Acts 2: 38 - 42 is to equate salvation with believing-- a faith that leads one to the proper Biblical response.

The proper Biblical response is to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

The infilling of the Holy Ghost, with the evidence of speaking in tongues, is not a prerequisite for Biblical salvation. It was never presented in scripture as so.

First of all, the Holy Ghost is the Promise from God to all those who believe on Him.

Salvation is equated with believing many, many times in the New Testament.

Salvation is not equated with speaking in tongues.

If Cornelius had died before experiencing the infilling of the Holy Ghost, would he have gone to hell?

The 3 stepper answer would have to be, "Yes, Cornelius would have gone to hell."

However, it is impossible for me to justify such an answer with scripture.

Acts 13:39 NIV
Through Him (Jesus Christ) everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law.

Acts 13:48 NIV
When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the Word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

Romans 4: 9 -12 has played a role in my understanding of salvation.

There is more.

But I have a question. Ron Harvey made a ref to some rule where what you see happen in scripture does not have to happen every time in order for a specific concept to be true.

Maybe you can elaborate on that for me-- when I asked him about it, he never responded.

Is there more than one concept in scripture where this is true?

The only way to reconcile Romans 10: 4 - 21 and Acts 2: 38 - 42 is to equate salvation with believing-- a faith that leads one to the proper Biblical response.

In both of the scriptures that you quote above, you have to realize that Paul was speaking to 2 different groups of people. In Acts the context was to people who were lost, heard his preaching, and were convicted of their sins; just ripe for picking. In Romans, Paul was writing to people who were already saved. Some of his concern for the church at Rome as well as other Gentile churches that he wrote epistles to was that the Gentiles were worried about not keeping the law. Paul many times contrasted the 2 belief systems - 1 being the keeping of the OT law of God and the other being faith in Christ. He wanted to encourage them, that in the NT salvation was only through the belief system of faith in Christ as opposed to faith in the original belief system of the OT law of God. It all begins by getting them to believe that it is okay to forsake those things that truly God did once require and that was the only way to do it at one point and that if you didn't, you were lost. And getting them to believe that they could turn to the one and only belief system that God now accepts in the NT dispensation - the belief system called - faith in Christ. Faith in Christ is unto salvation - it is not salvation all by itself, but it is unto salvation.

The infilling of the Holy Ghost, with the evidence of speaking in tongues, is not a prerequisite for Biblical salvation. It was never presented in scripture as so.


This statement mixes in 2 thoughts - 1 being the infilling of the Holy Ghost and 2 being what is the evidence that once has received the infilling of the HOly Ghost.

I suspect that we can both agree that being filled with the Holy Ghost is a NT salvation requirement because...

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Perhaps what some have a problem with is what is the evidence that one has indeed rec'd the baptism of the Holy Ghost.

Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Why did Jesus in John 3:8 above compare receiving the Spirit to being like the wind? Why would He even make that statement? Could it be so that we would have a scripture that shows how one can know whether or not they have rec'd the Holy Ghost or not?

Jesus said that every single one that is born of the Spirit is like the wind, you don't know where its coming from or where its going, but you hear the sound thereof. A sound will accompany every single one that is born of the Spirit and in Acts that sound was tongues.

How did the Jews know in Acts 10 that the Gentiles had rec'd the Holy Ghost?

Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

In Acts 10, Peter said that the Gentiles had rec'd the HOly Ghost just like the Jews did. In Acts 11, Peter explained that the Gentiles had rec'd the Holy Ghost just like they did in the beginning. And in Acts 15, Peter said that the Gentiles had rec'd the Holy Ghost as he did unto them. They knew they had rec'd the Holy Ghost because it happened to them just like it did to the Jews in Acts 2.

One of the signs that Jesus said would follow them that believe is that they shall speak with new tongues. Paul in 1 Cor 14 said that tongues were a sign not to believers but to unbelievers. Peter in Acts 15 said...

Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

God bare them witness that they did really truly believe how? By giving them the Holy Ghost even as he did unto the Jews. God purified their hearts by faith how? How did God put no difference between the Jews who believed and received the Holy Ghost speaking with other tongues and the Gentiles? By giving them the Holy Ghost just like he did to the Jews - speaking with other tongues.

Paul here...

1Co 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
1Co 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

Quotes from Isaiah 28:11-2...

Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
Isa 28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

Jesus said - Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Jesus is the giver of rest and Jesus is the baptizer of the Holy Ghost...

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

The baptism of the Holy Ghost that Jesus gives is the rest and the refreshing that is evidenced by the sound of speaking with other tongues and can also include stammering lips. Jesus and Paul both called it a sign. What is it a sign of? It is the initial sign that someone had rec'd the baptism of the Holy Ghost. Every Christian church should have this sign to unbelievers and if they don't, then unbelievers should go find another church.

If Cornelius had died before experiencing the infilling of the Holy Ghost, would he have gone to hell?


Let's let the scripture answer this question for us...

Angel to Cornelius - Acts 10:5 And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter: 6 He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do.

Peter explaining after-the-fact - Acts 11:13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter; 14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

According to scripture, if Cornelius would have died before Peter got to him, he would NOT have been saved even though he feared God will all his household, gave much alms, and prayed to God always.

[theoldpaths]

Originally Posted by 1399

The only way to reconcile Romans 10: 4 - 21 and Acts 2: 38 - 42 is to equate salvation with believing-- a faith that leads one to the proper Biblical response.

The proper Biblical response is to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

The infilling of the Holy Ghost, with the evidence of speaking in tongues, is not a prerequisite for Biblical salvation. It was never presented in scripture as so.

First of all, the Holy Ghost is the Promise from God to all those who believe on Him.

Salvation is equated with believing many, many times in the New Testament.

Salvation is not equated with speaking in tongues.

If Cornelius had died before experiencing the infilling of the Holy Ghost, would he have gone to hell?

The 3 stepper answer would have to be, "Yes, Cornelius would have gone to hell."

However, it is impossible for me to justify such an answer with scripture.

Acts 13:39 NIV
Through Him (Jesus Christ) everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law.

Acts 13:48 NIV
When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the Word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

Romans 4: 9 -12 has played a role in my understanding of salvation.

There is more.

But I have a question. Ron Harvey made a ref to some rule where what you see happen in scripture does not have to happen every time in order for a specific concept to be true.

Maybe you can elaborate on that for me-- when I asked him about it, he never responded.

Is there more than one concept in scripture where this is true?

Act 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
Act 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

In Acts 13, Paul was preaching to the Jews. When preaching to the Jews or Pagans, the first thing you have to do is to get them to believe first. If they will not believe what is preached, then they will not turn away from their OT or pagan traditions and beliefs.

Incidentally, Paul told the Corinthians...

1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

They were - past tense - lost but now they are - present tense - washed, sanctified, and justified - they are now saved - in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. They were lost but now they are saved. How? By the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. Compare that to Acts 2:38. Being washed, sanctified, and justified comes from believing, repenting, being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and receiving the Holy Ghost. Were the Corinthian gentiles saved and converted differently than the first Gentiles Cornelius? Of course not - there is only 1 way to be saved.

Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Yep, they had made the turn away from their religious traditions and decided to believe; and belief in Jesus leads to obeying Jesus. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.

[theoldpaths]

Originally Posted by 1399

The only way to reconcile Romans 10: 4 - 21 and Acts 2: 38 - 42 is to equate salvation with believing-- a faith that leads one to the proper Biblical response.

The proper Biblical response is to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

The infilling of the Holy Ghost, with the evidence of speaking in tongues, is not a prerequisite for Biblical salvation. It was never presented in scripture as so.

First of all, the Holy Ghost is the Promise from God to all those who believe on Him.

Salvation is equated with believing many, many times in the New Testament.

Salvation is not equated with speaking in tongues.

If Cornelius had died before experiencing the infilling of the Holy Ghost, would he have gone to hell?

The 3 stepper answer would have to be, "Yes, Cornelius would have gone to hell."

However, it is impossible for me to justify such an answer with scripture.

Acts 13:39 NIV
Through Him (Jesus Christ) everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law.

Acts 13:48 NIV
When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the Word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

Romans 4: 9 -12 has played a role in my understanding of salvation.

There is more.

But I have a question. Ron Harvey made a ref to some rule where what you see happen in scripture does not have to happen every time in order for a specific concept to be true.

Maybe you can elaborate on that for me-- when I asked him about it, he never responded.

Is there more than one concept in scripture where this is true?

You have to understand that in Romans Paul was writing to the Gentiles and explaining Abraham in a way to show them that they didn't have to worry about being saved and staying saved without the OT law.

Faith was reckoned to Abraham before circumcision. And how did we know that Abraham had faith?

Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Can faith alone without works save a man in the NT? The answer according to scripture is no!

Abraham believed God because he did was God told him to do and because he obeyed he was justified. Just like now in the NT, when we obey Acts 2:38, we are washed, sanctified, and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God - see 1 Cor 6:9-11.

I have no idea who Ron Harvey is.

Concerning a pattern of salvation...

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Jesus said they would be witnesses (of what? His salvation) to the Jews, Samaritans, and the Gentiles. 3 major groups of people.

Jesus said - Mat 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

Notice 3 groups becoming a whole in the context of the kingdom of heaven.

What is common in the major witness and conversion places that Jesus identified in Acts 1:8? In every one Christ was preached and sinners were baptized in the name of Jesus and they rec'd "the" gift of the Holy Ghost - they were born of water and Spirit.

In the major conversions of the jews (Acts 2), the samaritans (Acts 8), the gentiles (Acts 10), and in the gentile land of Ephesus (Acts 19) - what was common in all these instances? - In every one Christ was preached and sinners were baptized in the name of Jesus and they rec'd "the" gift of the Holy Ghost - they were born of water and Spirit.

In the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses shall every word be established - Peter, Philip, and Paul all preached the same plan of salvation to the lost in the major conversions of Acts 2, 8, 10, & 19

Jesus in Acts 1:8 said that they would be "witnesses" unto him in Jerusalem and Judea (Peter Acts 2) - Samaria (Philip Acts 8) - and unto the uttermost part of the earth - gentiles - (Peter Acts 10 and Paul in Acts 19) - in the mouth of 2 or 3 "witnesses" shall every word be established.

God bless.

[Sept5SavedTeen]

It is worrisome that some PAW churches are closer to the COGIC churches than to the UPC ones in town...
1399, what have you decided? People give their input but something in me says you've already made up your mind. For what it's worth, I think you should find an Apostolic church that's as close to your beliefs as possible- the trinity is a false god and for that reason, I don't even know that you should be stepping foot in ANY trinitarian church.

-Bro. Alex

[TRFrance]

Originally Posted by Sept5SavedTeen

It is worrisome that some PAW churches are closer to the COGIC churches than to the UPC ones in town...
1399, what have you decided? People give their input but something in me says you've already made up your mind. For what it's worth, I think you should find an Apostolic church that's as close to your beliefs as possible- the trinity is a false god and for that reason, I don't even know that you should be stepping foot in ANY trinitarian church.

-Bro. Alex

I think there is a racial component that contributes to that. There is a lot more interaction between PAW and COGIC members since those are both predominantly black denominations; and there is a significant, though often undiscussed, racial wall that's existed for some time between the PAW and UPC in many parts of the country.

Unfortunately, generally speaking, the PAW is not known for being quite as hardcore and strident on the core doctrines as the UPCI is, and this "chumminess" between PAW and COGIC churches I think has contributed to a lot of doctrinal impurity and compromise creeping into PAW churches.

[Steve Epley]

Truth should trumpt every other issue every time. I used to visit family they went to a 'Trinity' Pentecostal church good size church lots of young folks. I was a teenager. I found a very small home mission church that I was the only young person there but the pastor preached truth. My Dad pastored a very large Charismatic church in St. Louis I found a small Apostolic church and it upset my family but truth overrides everything.

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Truth should trumpt every other issue every time. I used to visit family they went to a 'Trinity' Pentecostal church good size church lots of young folks. I was a teenager. I found a very small home mission church that I was the only young person there but the pastor preached truth. My Dad pastored a very large Charismatic church in St. Louis I found a small Apostolic church and it upset my family but truth overrides everything.

Elder, is that charismatic church that your father ran still a going church in St. Louis? Curious if it is still around.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by JTULLOCK

Elder, is that charismatic church that your father ran still a going church in St. Louis? Curious if it is still around.

No. He tried to do both for a season after he moved to Miami but after a couple of years it was too much. I don't know who has the building now it was 500 Kingshighway.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by Sept5SavedTeen

It is worrisome that some PAW churches are closer to the COGIC churches than to the UPC ones in town...
1399, what have you decided? People give their input but something in me says you've already made up your mind. For what it's worth, I think you should find an Apostolic church that's as close to your beliefs as possible- the trinity is a false god and for that reason, I don't even know that you should be stepping foot in ANY trinitarian church.

-Bro. Alex

Alex,
I thought I had made my mind up about joining that church. I will be there for services tomorrow.