Bro Suber's controversial sermon

[augustianian]

Triumphant,

"I will close this little thing with this...If God tells me to blow on someone and they will be healed...I will blow with all my might!

I really don't have a problem with the majority of what you posted except this.

How do you know that that is God telling you to blow??

[augustianian]

Originally Posted by keith4him

Sorry about your dad!

Did everyone the Apostles pray for get healed, well we don't know because not everyone they prayed for is recorded in scripture.

We do know that James didn't get delivered, Paul suffered from some ailment, Timothy a instestinal disorder, Tromphius left at home sick, I am sure there are others.

But many got healed, Peter got delivered, Paul handled some snakes, Publius got his healing, Dorcas left heaven after just arriving.

My job isn't to determine who gets healed or delievered, my job is to preach and pray that the kingdom has come and is available in this present reality, how much of it that I or other's experience is the King's job.

Now Keith, you and I know that the miracles wrought by the apostles were used for vindication of the gospel and their aposlteship.

And that is my problem with modern day "prophets". They're terrible expositors. They're messy exegetes. And they're logical nincampoops.

And I should listen to them?? Especially when the "miracles" they perform are either a redefinition of the word or they're validated by special pleading.

The apostle's did turn their world upside down and equating modern day "prophets" with them is, in my opinion, ahistorical and diminishes their apostleship.

The rest of your post is not problematic to my opinions about modern day "prophets" because I am not complaining about the existence of suffering and/or death but rather the culpability of modern day "prophets" when they say "Thus says the Lord" while He didn't really say it. How many faiths have been damaged because of such irresponsibility??

By the way, this is Tim Kegley

God bless you in India,

a

[augustianian]

Originally Posted by philjones

Augustinian,

Did this unfortunate event occur before or after your move toward reformed teachings? Did your father's death to this dreaded disease in any way effect your doctrinal migraton?

Just curious... As before, please feel free to tell me to mind my own business!

First of all, I have no problem answering these questions.

I can understand why you would ask them...because when the unfortunate happens sometimes we tend to change our worldview.

However, my worldview was Calvinistic before these events transpired and was very helpful in maintaining my faith and others. (I gave a eulogy at his funeral).

Nothing like a strong view of God's sovereignty to help when we lose control.

a

[TRFrance]

Originally Posted by augustianian

Don't have a problem with divine healing at all.

I do have a problem with 50 percenters (a liberal percentage of a "prophet's" success) expecting 100 percent adherence from the flock, especially since they preach and teach the silliest things at times teetering on the brink of heresy.

Also, I have a problem when people equate my suspicion about "prophets'' and preachers that utter nonsensical statements with "Oh you don't believe that God can heal." How does that follow?? They equate such doubt with a soft atheism.

Yes GOD can heal...and the apostles are dead.

So, if it's not in the book then Im not bound to it..and Im not required to call such men "Men of God" nor am i bound to show them any more respect than what is required for any human being.

And if they're fleecing the flock...then they are to be exposed as dogs and regarded as such.

Fair enough. Just respect the fruits of their ministry, that's all. The proof, as they say, is in the pudding.

Originally Posted by augustianian

TW Barnes prayed for my father (over the phone, does that count?). My father died.

Another "prophet" asked my father if he wanted to be healed (a dumb question) and if he answered yes then God would heal him. He answered yes...God didn't heal him.

I put no stock in any "prophet."

Of course the "prophet" and their defenders can always use their escape route by saying "He just didn't have enough faith."

Whatever.

Sorry if I actually believe I Thessalonians 5:21

...and proving it requires more than word of mouth, or the excited pronouncements of a preacher.

Sorry about your dad's passing.
But please don't allow bitterness over your father's situation to set in, and kill your faith in the present-day moving of God.

Originally Posted by augustianian

Triumphant,

"I will close this little thing with this...If God tells me to blow on someone and they will be healed...I will blow with all my might!

I really don't have a problem with the majority of what you posted except this.

How do you know that that is God telling you to blow??

Well how does anyone know when God is telling them to do something?
By them knowing God, and being sensitive to the voice of God. Plain and simple.

Does the bible say that God worked "unusual miracles" by the hand of Paul?
God can do the same today, (even though those apostles are dead).


.

[TRFrance]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Hmmmm.

Well, I'm hard-pressed to mock or question something, if folks are being healed. I seem to recall some pretty weird things in scripture, including mud-in-the-eye, passing shadows, and dipping in dirty rivers, to name a few.

Well said.

The same God who can heal by the laying on on hands.. can also heal by having the preacher stick 2 fingers in a man's nose if he wants... or even blowing up the man's nose if he wants.

I pray that today's ministers who wish to be used in the gifts of healing and miracles will be sensitive enough and obedient enough to God's will, even to the point of doing things that might seem odd to those looking on.

For the minister himself, this is a test of obedience. I'd rather see the man of God be obedient, and people get healed, than for him to worry about what people think, & not obey God, and as a result the healing doesn't take place.

I place no limits on my God.
...But I do however, still believe in proving all things, and judging a tree by its fruit. That's where wisdom and discernment come in.

Originally Posted by augustianian

First of all, I have no problem answering these questions.

I can understand why you would ask them...because when the unfortunate happens sometimes we tend to change our worldview.

However, my worldview was Calvinistic before these events transpired and was very helpful in maintaining my faith and others. (I gave a eulogy at his funeral).

Nothing like a strong view of God's sovereignty to help when we lose control.

a

You would probably find it interesting that I have been lampooned by some on AFF because of a statement I made concerning logic and God's sovereignty.

I said something to the effect that if you expect God to be logical you will possibly be disappointed because HE is not logical... HE is SOVEREIGN! It is my opinion that any doctrine formed without the first consideration being the sovereignty of God is an invitation to error.

[augustianian]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

Fair enough. Just respect the fruits of their ministry, that's all. The proof, as they say, is in the pudding.


Sorry about your dad's passing.
But please don't allow bitterness over your father's situation to set in, and kill your faith in the present-day moving of God.



Well how does anyone know when God is telling them to do something?
By them knowing God, and being sensitive to the voice of God. Plain and simple.

Does the bible say that God worked "unusual miracles" by the hand of Paul?
God can do the same today, (even though those apostles are dead).


.

It's the fruit that Im concerned about. Bad exposition, bad theology, and logical nonsense can bear good fruit?? Ok, if you say so.

Im not bitter about my father...I am skeptical about the present day moving of God, as you call it, when the theological IQ of believer's is marginal. But that's just me.

As far as someone knowing if God is telling them something...it seems to be very subjective to me and worthy of suspicion...I would be a fool to believe something because someone said it was God telling them. I'll go to the book.

No question that God can do what He wants. However, the apostle's ARE dead and the environment of their miracles and the reasons for them are different and no longer apply.

a

[augustianian]

Originally Posted by philjones

You would probably find it interesting that I have been lampooned by some on AFF because of a statement I made concerning logic and God's sovereignty.

I said something to the effect that if you expect God to be logical you will possibly be disappointed because HE is not logical... HE is SOVEREIGN! It is my opinion that any doctrine formed without the first consideration being the sovereignty of God is an invitation to error.

I think I understand the point you're making, however, God is not an irrational being. He cannot violate the law of non-contradiction not because it limits His omnipresence or His being, but rather it would be inconsistent with His nature. He is a rational being and therefore what He does and what He reveals is rational.

The fact that He is sovereign is what I would term a NECESSARY logical conclusion that explains existence of other beings and the objective reality of good and evil.

You are correct that to begin with the presupposition of God's sovereignty is the correct starting place not only for doctrine but for reasoning itself.

a

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by augustianian

It's the fruit that Im concerned about. Bad exposition, bad theology, and logical nonsense can bear good fruit?? Ok, if you say so.

Im not bitter about my father...I am skeptical about the present day moving of God, as you call it, when the theological IQ of believer's is marginal. But that's just me.

As far as someone knowing if God is telling them something...it seems to be very subjective to me and worthy of suspicion...I would be a fool to believe something because someone said it was God telling them. I'll go to the book.

No question that God can do what He wants. However, the apostle's ARE dead and the environment of their miracles and the reasons for them are different and no longer apply.
a

I would love to see some scripture for this statement?

The scripture I read says that "greater than these shall YE do".

Originally Posted by augustianian

I think I understand the point you're making, however, God is not an irrational being. He cannot violate the law of non-contradiction not because it limits His omnipresence or His being, but rather it would be inconsistent with His nature. He is a rational being and therefore what He does and what He reveals is rational.

The fact that He is sovereign is what I would term a NECESSARY logical conclusion that explains existence of other beings and the objective reality of good and evil.

You are correct that to begin with the presupposition of God's sovereignty is the correct starting place not only for doctrine but for reasoning itself.

a

I agree that God is rational but by whose measure. Certainly we should measure all rationality and all logic by the Sovereign God who is the source of all things. Too often we invert the process and try to define God Almighty by flawed human rationale and logic.