Was Adam and Eve the only first created?

[Esaias]

Jesus said that which defiles a man does not come from outside of himself, but from his heart. Therefore, according to Jesus, defilement proceeds from the heart. Notice, it proceeds from the heart and defiles the man.

10And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand: 11Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

12Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying? 13But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up. 14Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

15Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable. 16And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding? 17Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught? 18But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. 19For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: 20These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

Look at that again - "These are the things which defile a man:"

These are the things which defile a man:

These are the things which defile a man:

What are the things that defile a man?

"...evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies"...

These are the things which defile a man:

Adam's sin and guilt is not that which defile YOU or anyone else except Adam. According to Jesus Christ, the 'Final WORD on the subject', it is SIN which defiles a man.

Adultery defiles the man. Murder defiles the man. Theft defiles the man. Fornication defiles the man. Evil thoughts defile the man. Blasphemies defile the man.

SIN defiles the man, not only the outward action, but the inward 'evil thoughts' as well. THESE are THE THINGS that defile the man.

But according to the proponents of 'original sin', the man is already defiled before any such things happen! Before any evil thoughts ever appeared, certainly before any murders, thefts, fornications, blasphemies, etc ever transpired! The man was already defiled by Adam's sin. Thus, Jesus is in error, according to the doctrine of original sin, because He said it was the man's OWN SINS (including his sins of the heart, his 'evil thoughts') that defile him.

Jesus had the PERFECT opportunity to explain and expound and reveal to his disciples the doctrine of original sin in this instance. The subject was 'what defiles a man?' If you ask a proponent of original sin 'what defiles a man?' what would he say? If a teacher who believes that all men are defiled at conception by inherited 'original sin', and he was going to teach theology students and prospective evangelists and pastors on the subject of 'what defiles a man?' he could not fail to teach 'Adam's sin, called original sin, inherited at conception, intrinsic to the very human nature all men possess, defiles the man. For from the inherited sin nature of original sin proceed all the actual sins a man may commit. But he is defiled to begin with. He does not become a sinner because he sins, but he sins because he is a sinner! His defilement is not the result or consequence of his sins, but his sins are the result or consequence of his defilement!'

And such a one would be teaching 180 degrees opposite to what the Lord Jesus Christ Himself taught on the very subject.

How strange...

[Esaias]

The proponents of original sin maintain that human beings are 'born in sin', that is, they are from their conception sinful and damned to hell.

Anyone who believes the doctrine of original, inherited sin, must therefore also believe the following:

1. All aborted babies are damned to hell with no opportunity for salvation.

2. All children who die before becoming Christians (say, at 1 years old, or 2 years old, or 3 months old) are damnable sinners, evil and disgusting in the sight of God, and deserving of eternal damnation - and assuredly damned to eternal damnation without any possibility of salvation.

3. No sinner can repent, or believe the gospel.

Let's look at that last one a little more closely, shall we?

If a person is condemned to hell because they are human, if they are sinful - not because they sin, but because they are defiled with the damnable taint of original sin - then regeneration MUST PRECEDE FAITH AND REPENTANCE. For, if the tree is evil, so is the fruit. Either the tree is good, and its fruit good, or the tree is evil, and its fruit evil. No man can serve two masters. In other words, according to Jesus, nobody can have a 'mixed moral condition'. No sinner can possibly be righteous at the same time. Nothing a sinner does can possibly be righteous. One cannot be partly good, and partly evil, at the same time.

Thus, even the prayer of unregenerated sinners is an abomination to God, and unacceptable. A sinner who repents, but who is still in possession of that taint of original sin, their repentance is abominable and unacceptable and is in fact SINFUL. ALL they do must of course be SINFUL.

So how does anyone get saved at all?

Why, God changes their nature! And THEN they can repent, believe, etc.

The Calvinists are entirely consistent on this matter. Original sin necessarily results in total depravity, and total depravity necessarily results in 'regeneration BEFORE repentance and faith'.

Furthermore, because NOBODY can 'come to Jesus' until they are FIRST regenerated by the power of God, and since not all men come to Jesus, but die unregenerate and in a state of damnation, it then necessarily follows that God only chooses to save SOME MEN. Thus, only some men CAN POSSIBLY be saved, and the rest CANNOT BY ANY MEANS WHATSOEVER BE SAVED.

And thus, unconditional election is the necessary result - which means God CHOOSES to save some men, and CHOOSES NOT TO SAVE THE REST. Which means God predestinates the lost to be damned.

Before they were even born, God decided He was not going to save them.

This is in turn necessarily means that NO PERSON CAN HAVE ASSURANCE OF SALVATION, because you cannot ever know if you are one of those people predestined to be saved, or predestined to be lost. You have no basis for believing your 'conversion' was genuine, or just a temporary 'religious expostulation of an unregenerate sinenr trying to assuage his conscience.'

And furthermore, because you cannot know if you are one of those 'chosen elect', chosen to be saved (as opposed to one of those chosen by God to be damned), you cannot have FAITH that Christ DIED FOR YOU PERSONALLY.

Oh, let's go a little further, shall we?

Since the saved are saved by God PRIOR to their repentance and faith, they are saved INDEPENDENT of repentance and faith. And therefore, their faith (or lack thereof) is IRRELEVANT TO SALVATION. Those chosen to be saved CANNOT POSSIBLY EVER NOT BE SAVED. 'Eternal security', once saved always saved, etc etc etc.

Those who believe in original sin, are either consistent Calvinists... or double minded and ignorant of their own doctrine.

[Esaias]

On this very forum, a poster said this:

This core Christian belief states that all men enter this world with an inherently sinful nature and all men possess an inherent moral corruptness in their own flesh. All men are therefore sinners by nature and apart from redemption through the grace of Christ, are under the curse of the Law, abide under the wrath of God, are by nature children of wrath, are dead in trespasses and sins, do nothing that pleases God, and sin continually against God as a manifestation of the wicked sinful nature in their own hearts. The Bible teaches that we (commit acts of) sin because we’re sinners (by nature), not that we are sinners only because we (commit acts of) sin; that outward acts of sin are manifestations of the moral depravity of our own hearts.

Now, let us examine these statements a little more closely. If these statements are true, then the following is also true, for they follow necessarily from the quoted premises.

1. God commands men to do what they cannot possibly do. God commands all men to love Him supremely and their neighbor as themselves. The keeping of God's commandments (the various commandments in the bible) are the mechanisms of obeying God in various circumstances. Since men fail to obey God because they have a sin nature, it is necessarily impossible for them to obey God.
2. God condemns men for not doing what they could not possibly do to begin with. Since sinners are damned, and since sinners cannot possibly obey God, men are condemned for not doing the impossible.
3. Babies who are aborted or die in infancy are condemned to hell with no possibility of salvation. since after death is the Judgement, and since babies are born sinners, and since sinners are BY NATURE (not their moral character) are condemned to hell, all babies are condemned from conception. If they die, as babies or infants, they are damned.
3. Sins (the actions of breaking God's commandments) are involuntary and beyond our control. And because they are involuntary, it follows that -
4. Sins do not incur guilt. Guilt is a moral state describing one who has not done what they should have done, or who has done what they should not have done. But it cannot be said one should have done that which is a natural and complete impossibility. Therefore, sins do not incur guilt.
5. Sinners are not guilty of anything. They possess the sin nature, and are therefore damned for hell, but since guilt is incurred by failure to act as one ought to act, and since possessing a sin nature is wholly involuntary and beyond anyone's control, sinners are not actually guilty of anything at all.
6. God damns the innocent. Since sinners are not actually guilty of anything at all, yet are damned for being human, they are innocent of wrongdoing but damned anyway.
7. God creates sinners and is the immediate cause of their damnation. The bible teaches that each of us is fashioned in the womb by God, that he created us each, individually. Since he created us each, individually, personally, with a sin nature, and since he has decided that anyone possessing a sin nature is damned, he has intentionally created us as sinners. God made us sinners. God did it intentionally, since nothing he does is by accident. The only reason we are damned is because we have a sin nature, and the only reason we have a sin nature is because God made us that way.
8. God punishes the children with damnation for the sins of their fathers. Or at least, for the sins of Adam. We did nothing but be born. Adam sinned and damned us all to hell. God damns us all to hell because of what Adam did,. not because of what we do or fail to do
9. Sinners have a just complaint against God. Sinners will stand before God on judgement day and confess 'I did nothing to deserve damnation, I was made this way, I was born this way, and you, God, made me this way.' And God will agree and ........ them anyway. Thus, God is not righteous in his judgements, but arbitrary and capricious.
10. Salvation is not of grace. Grace is undeserved favor. In regards to criminal issues, and court judgements, grace is forgiveness, leniency, pardon, mercy. But no sinner can truly believe salvation is by grace, if damnation is wholly involuntary and is earned by something somebody else did, and not themselves. If I commit a crime, and the court decides to punish YOU for the crime because you are related to me, and then decides to spare you the punishment, you will never believe how gracious and merciful the court was. You will at best be thankful the court chose to act JUSTLY in not punishing the innocent. And thus, you will view your salvation as a matter of JUSTICE and not GRACE.

These are necessary conclusions that result from the premises given in support of 'original sin'. They are as false as they are preposterous.

[Esaias]

Some Scriptures are then given to buttress this pagan absurdity called 'original sin', such as:


Genesis 6:5 – “And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.” (See also Gen. 8:21)
The Scripture here emphasises man's wickedness, not that he is wicked because he is man, but because he is wicked, his heart was thoroughly evil. This verse simply describes the moral condition of mankind at the time immediately prior to the Flood, and does not say that mankind has a sin nature.

5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.

9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

Noah was not among those who were described in verse 5. Also, God was sorry he had made man. Why would he be sorry if he had made them sinners to begin with, and they were simply doing what he made them to do? God makes each of us, the bible teaching on THAT is clear and unrefutable.




Psalms 51:5 –“Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.”
A favorite of the Arminians, this verse does not declare that David was born with a sin nature. If taken literally, it literally means his mother committed sin in conceiving him, and God's shaping of him was iniquitous. It does not say what the proponents of original sin want it to say.

This is part of David's psalm of repentance and confession for his sin in having Bathsheba's husband killed so he could take her for his own. If David is here confessing that he was born a sinner, and had a sin nature, and therefore his sins are the result of his nature, and not his evil choices, then the rest of the Psalm is redundant. One does not feel GUILT and REMORSE for what they themselves DID NOT HAVE ANY CONTROL OVER. David is not excusing his sins, which is the necessary conclusion that proponents of original sin doctrine try to hide from.


Ecclesiastes 7:20 – “For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.”
Again, stating that all are sinners, is not the same as saying all are sinners because they have no control over themselves because they have a sin nature. Such a conclusion is a non sequitur. Notice the tie in between those who are just, as being those who 'sinneth not'. In other words, NOWHERE does the Bible equate sinning with the involuntary possession of human nature, or identifies 'unrighteous' people as those who 'are humans'. Instead, here, as elsewhere, moral condition is equated with ACTIONS - sinning or not sinning.


Romans 5:12-19 – “Wherefore, etc.
The passage specifically states "... and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" thereby refuting the original sin doctrine. the word 'for' means BECAUSE.

I will deal with romans 5 in a later post because it needs to be fully explained.


Ephesians 2:1-3 – “And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."
This passage says we were dead in tresspasses and sins, not dead because we have a human nature which is sinful, or that we were born sinners. Again, this passage is twisted and misinterpreted to mean what it simply does not say.


1 John 1:8 – “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.”
Who says we have no sin? Nobody except the deceived.

These and other passages are claimed to prove the doctrine of original sin, and it's corollary, the doctrine of 'total depravity'. These passages however do not actually say we are born sinners, or that humans have a sinful nature birth. To interpret them that way makes the bible contradict itself. To understand them AS THEY ARE ACTUALLY WRITTEN, however, leads to no contradiction.

The truth of the matter?

Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions. (Ecclesiastes 7:29).

And,

They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation. (Deuteronomy 32:5)

[Esaias]

Romans 5

This passage is interpreted as saying Adam sinned and therefore all mankind are born sinners (have a sin nature) and sin involuntarily and are condemned because of it.

Verse 14 declares the sins of men are not the sin of Adam, and thus the Federal theory of original sin, as well as the Augustinian (aka 'realist) theory are refuted.

'Made sinners": To believe that this means that all mankind were literally MADE INTO SINNERS and therefore commit sin because of Adam's sin alone, requires us to understand the passage to also teach that all mankind are now righteous and have eternal life because of Christ. Which by the way, is one of the sources of the universalist error.

Furthermore, if the original sin proponents are correct, not only is universalism a true and correct bible doctrine, but so is the Calvinist theory that men are regenerated (born again) prior to believing the gospel. This is because the original sin doctrine proposes a physical, irresistible force to Adam's sin, and must (to be consistent) apply the same understanding to Christ's obedience. Thus all men are involuntarily made righteous by Christ's obedience without any regard whatsoever to their faith, belief, obedience, repentance, or any such thing, just as they are involuntarily made sinners by Adam's disobedience without any regard to their unbelief, disobedience, lack of repentance, or any such thing.

In verses 18, 19, and 21, Paul compares the two themes (death in Adam, life in Christ) and says repeatedly, 'as the one, so the other'. Thus, the two are similar, not dissimilar as the proponents of original sin would have us believe. How are men made righteous by Christ? By their voluntary submission to the gospel. How are men made sinners by Adam? 'As the one, so the other'. In other words, by the voluntary choice of their heart.

Romans 5 teaches that Adam's sin created the opportunity for us to sin, for by him sin entered the world. 'As the one, so the other'. And so Christ's obedience to the gospel plan of dying as a propitiation for our sins (not merely for Adam's alone) likewise creates the opportunity for us to be forgiven and declared righteous.

But neither one is involuntary, necessary, or passed on by 'birth'.

Otherwise, all mankind has already been saved and there is no such thing as a 'lost person'.

[Esaias]

Sin is not an involuntary affliction.

It is 'transgression of the law'. Therefore it is voluntary. It incurs guilt. And salvation is a matter of GRACE and PARDON, not 'deliverance from an involuntary affliction'.

And so sinners are WITHOUT EXCUSE, since their sins are THEIR FAULT. Not God's. Not Adam's. Not the devil's. Not human nature's.

THEIR'S, and their's alone.

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by Esaias

The proponents of original sin maintain that human beings are 'born in sin', that is, they are from their conception sinful and damned to hell.

Anyone who believes the doctrine of original, inherited sin, must therefore also believe the following:

1. All aborted babies are damned to hell with no opportunity for salvation.

2. All children who die before becoming Christians (say, at 1 years old, or 2 years old, or 3 months old) are damnable sinners, evil and disgusting in the sight of God, and deserving of eternal damnation - and assuredly damned to eternal damnation without any possibility of salvation.

3. No sinner can repent, or believe the gospel.

Let's look at that last one a little more closely, shall we?

If a person is condemned to hell because they are human, if they are sinful - not because they sin, but because they are defiled with the damnable taint of original sin - then regeneration MUST PRECEDE FAITH AND REPENTANCE. For, if the tree is evil, so is the fruit. Either the tree is good, and its fruit good, or the tree is evil, and its fruit evil. No man can serve two masters. In other words, according to Jesus, nobody can have a 'mixed moral condition'. No sinner can possibly be righteous at the same time. Nothing a sinner does can possibly be righteous. One cannot be partly good, and partly evil, at the same time.

Thus, even the prayer of unregenerated sinners is an abomination to God, and unacceptable. A sinner who repents, but who is still in possession of that taint of original sin, their repentance is abominable and unacceptable and is in fact SINFUL. ALL they do must of course be SINFUL.

So how does anyone get saved at all?

Why, God changes their nature! And THEN they can repent, believe, etc.

The Calvinists are entirely consistent on this matter. Original sin necessarily results in total depravity, and total depravity necessarily results in 'regeneration BEFORE repentance and faith'.

Furthermore, because NOBODY can 'come to Jesus' until they are FIRST regenerated by the power of God, and since not all men come to Jesus, but die unregenerate and in a state of damnation, it then necessarily follows that God only chooses to save SOME MEN. Thus, only some men CAN POSSIBLY be saved, and the rest CANNOT BY ANY MEANS WHATSOEVER BE SAVED.

And thus, unconditional election is the necessary result - which means God CHOOSES to save some men, and CHOOSES NOT TO SAVE THE REST. Which means God predestinates the lost to be damned.

Before they were even born, God decided He was not going to save them.

This is in turn necessarily means that NO PERSON CAN HAVE ASSURANCE OF SALVATION, because you cannot ever know if you are one of those people predestined to be saved, or predestined to be lost. You have no basis for believing your 'conversion' was genuine, or just a temporary 'religious expostulation of an unregenerate sinenr trying to assuage his conscience.'

And furthermore, because you cannot know if you are one of those 'chosen elect', chosen to be saved (as opposed to one of those chosen by God to be damned), you cannot have FAITH that Christ DIED FOR YOU PERSONALLY.

Oh, let's go a little further, shall we?

Since the saved are saved by God PRIOR to their repentance and faith, they are saved INDEPENDENT of repentance and faith. And therefore, their faith (or lack thereof) is IRRELEVANT TO SALVATION. Those chosen to be saved CANNOT POSSIBLY EVER NOT BE SAVED. 'Eternal security', once saved always saved, etc etc etc.

Those who believe in original sin, are either consistent Calvinists... or double minded and ignorant of their own doctrine.

Brutal

[Esaias]

The law of sin is the ruling of sin in a person's life. The law of righteousness is it's contrast - the rule of God in a person's life.

To whom you yield yourselves servants to obey, his servant ye are, whether of sin unto death, or obedience unto life.

In other words, the rule of sin in a person's life requires their voluntary consent.

The bible does not teach that sin is a substance contained within the nature of man inherited by descent from Adam. It teaches that sin is a moral choice of the individual, leading to bondage and ultimately to death. Sin is 'crime', not 'a disease'. Sinners are people who yield to disobedience, to transgression of God's law. We sin when we yield to temptation, which is desire for that which is forbidden by God.

Ultimately, sin is selfishness, as opposed to holiness, which is dedication and total consecration to God and our neighbor.

The two great commandments are to love God and to love our neighbor, all the commandments of God are expressions or variations of those two great commands. Sin is the opposite - loving self supremely.

Our nature certainly has been degraded, corrupted by sin, and is not functioning as it should. The passions and desires are aroused beyond measure. But our nature is not sinful IN ITSELF, for God made us (each of us, individually, personally, not just by default because of the laws of nature) and God did not make any of us to be sinners.

[coksiw]

Speaking about new borns:

[1Ki 14:12-13 YLT] 12 'And thou, rise, go to thy house; in the going in of thy feet to the city -- hath the lad died; 13 and all Israel have mourned for him, and buried him, for this one -- by himself -- cometh of Jeroboam unto a grave, because there hath been found in him a good thing towards Jehovah, God of Israel, in the house of Jeroboam.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by coksiw

Brutal

The doctrine of original inherited sin is between the hammer and the anvil. And I don't swing lightly.