Leadership Structure

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Elder Esaias

You've created posts on leadership structure in the past.
Please provide that information again, when you have a minute, if you don't mind.
How reliable is Ignatius of Antioch for providing guidance on Church Structure and sacraments.

This may end up on Facebook also

For those who may be interested in another take:

Matthew 23:10 (NASB),

10 And do not be called leaders; for only One is your Leader, that is, Christ.

Why did the translators of the NASB decide to use the words "leaders" and "Leader" when most translations use the words "teachers" and "Teacher", or, in the case of the KJV, "masters" and "Master"?

Here is the Greek text:

μηδὲ κληθῆτε καθηγηταί ὅτι καθηγητὴς ὑμῶν ἐστιν εἷς ὁ Χριστός

See: https://biblehub.com/matthew/23-10.htm

The key words of the text are καθηγηταί (kathēgētai) and καθηγητὴς (kathēgētēs).

Both of these words derive from καθηγητής (kathégétés), which is a compound from κατά (kata) and ἡγέομαι (hégeomai).

κατά (kata) is both a preposition and a prefix in Koine Greek. It typically means "down", as from a higher to lower place, and as such, it can mean something like "top to bottom", or all throughout.

See: https://biblehub.com/greek/2596.htm

ἡγέομαι (hégeomai) means "to lead", or to go before and lead the way. To be the chief, or scout, who takes point. It denotes the role an official in government plays in leading the citizenry, or of having command authority as one whose role and purpose carries weight, especially in terms of voting.

See: https://biblehub.com/greek/2233.htm

So, it would seem that Jesus is teaching His students, and by extension, us, that no one but Christ gets to take point, have command authority, or gets to establish a "top-down" government where He is the Leader or Chief, and everyone else are followers, i.e. the led.

This notion turns on its head the entire idea of "Leadership" in the church. Many have and do read from the KJV, and so, esteem Paul's exhortation to the Corinthians, to "follow me as I follow Christ" (See: 1 Corinthians 11:1).

This adage has been taken up by many pastors and elders in the church to mean something like, "I/We am/are the leader/s. We follow Christ. And as He leads us, you should then follow wherever we go".

But this is problematic for several reasons:

1.) Paul wrote this as an Apostle, not as a pastor or elder
2.) Paul wrote this as an Apostle to a congregation he personally founded through his own evangelistic endeavors
3.) The Greek term translated in the KJV as "follow" is better translated as "imitate".

1 Corinthians 11:1 (ESV),

Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.

Imitators: mιμηταί (mimētai), from μιμητής (mimétés):

(the root of the English term, mimic, "one who imitates, emulates") – properly, the positive imitation that arises by admiring the pattern set by someone worthy of emulation, i.e. a mentor setting a proper example.

See:

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_corinthians/11-1.htm
https://biblehub.com/greek/3402.htm

So, the text isn't about "following" in the sense of one leads and everyone else gets on the path. It's about emulating Paul's example as he attempts to emulate Christ's example. Since Christ spent time in prayer, Paul spent time in prayer, so the Corinthians should spend time in prayer, so believers everywhere should spend time in prayer. Christ fasted, so Paul fasted, and etc. Christ proclaimed the Good News, so Paul did likewise, and etc. all the way to today.

It's not, "I'm the pastor of this church and what I say goes", or some other derivative meaning essentially the same thing, even if the congregation has Biblical eldership and not just a Monarchial Bishop.

Furthermore, to the same church, Paul wrote to them and told them the following regarding him and Silvanus and Timotheus:

2 Corinthians 1:24 (ESV),

24 Not that we lord it over your faith, but we work with you for your joy, for you stand firm in your faith.

The KJV reads "dominion" in place of "lord", but the meaning is the same, stemming from κυριεύω (kurieuó), meaning:

properly, to exercise rights over one's own property as an owner with full dominion (lordship) over this jurisdiction.

See: https://biblehub.com/greek/2961.htm

Paul, an Apostle of God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, and Silvanus and Timotheus, exercised no rights over anyone's faith as if having full dominion over such a jurisdiction.

Yes, Paul relayed the Word of the Lord to the churches he founded, and sometimes he even issued commands to them, but in the final analysis, what anyone believed or held on to be true, Paul and his team did not try to control or own.

To be continued...

[Esaias]

I had heard the correct interpretation of Paul's statement was essentially "follow me in the same way I am following Christ", ie "I am imitating Christ so you should too", not that he was saying "do what I say because I am the archbishop of Corinth" or whatever.

But if we take that view we lose a lot of justification for our fancy hats and gold embroidered robes (or fancy suits and hankerchiefs and ties?)

[votivesoul]

From Post 41

On top of everything else I've just written, another key point from 1 Corinthians 11 needs to be taken into account.

1 Corinthians 11:3 (ESV),

3 But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.

Any church model or system of organization MUST not deviate from this teaching.

There are no two-headed monsters in the Church of the Living God.

As a married man, I alone am my wife's "head", just as Christ alone is my "head", just as only God is the "head" of Christ.

For anyone to attempt to interfere with this hierarchy is to usurp not only the husband's place in his wife's life, but to also USURP CHRIST'S PLACE in the husband's life, which is to USURP GOD'S PLACE in Christ's life.

You do this at your absolute peril. When Simon Peter attempted to control Christ's life by attempting to stop the Lord's journey to Jerusalem and the Cross, the Lord Jesus rebuked Simon in front of everyone and called him "a satan", i.e. an adversary, who didn't care for the things of God.

Attempting to make yourself another head in someone else's life makes you "a satan, who doesn't care for the things of God".

Simon Peter, having learned his lessons, came to write this:

1 Peter 4:14 (ESV),

15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer or a thief or an evil doer or as a meddler.

Simon has just exhorted his audience to imitate Christ's example and learn to suffer patiently and in silence, when being mistreated, even persecuted. But, if you've been accused by being a murderer, or thief, or an evil doer, or a meddler, you should then speak up and defend yourself against any such accusations.

To be accused of being a murderer, or a thief, or an evil doer seems pretty straightforward. But what does it mean to be accused of being a "meddler"?

We probably all know that to meddle means something like to interfere and mess with someone or something that doesn't pertain or belong to the meddler.

But the Scriptures are a little more specific:

Meddler: ἀλλοτριεπίσκοπος (allotriepiskopos), a compound of two Greek terms:

ἀλλότριος (allotrios) and ἐπίσκοπος (episkopos)

ἀλλότριος (allotrios) refers to anything which belongs to another person and ἐπίσκοπος (episkopos), whence we derive the word bishop, refers to someone who has oversight in some particular fashion or manner.

As such, ἀλλοτριεπίσκοπος (allotriepiskopos) means:

one who meddles in things alien to his calling or in matters belonging to others

See: https://biblehub.com/greek/244.htm

Since the teachings of the Scripture is that the husband is the head of the wife and family, no one but the husband is called to that role. Since the wife is to reverence her husband and only yield to him (See, e.g. Ephesians 5:22-24), anyone attempting to gain another man's wife's reverence and submission is a "meddler".

Furthermore, since children are to obey their parents in the Lord (See, e.g. Ephesians 6:1 and Colossians 3:20), people who pry into and demand someone else's children be obedient to them instead of to their mom and dad, are meddler's.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I had heard the correct interpretation of Paul's statement was essentially "follow me in the same way I am following Christ", ie "I am imitating Christ so you should too", not that he was saying "do what I say because I am the archbishop of Corinth" or whatever.

But if we take that view we lose a lot of justification for our fancy hats and gold embroidered robes (or fancy suits and hankerchiefs and ties?)

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

From Post 41

On top of everything else I've just written, another key point from 1 Corinthians 11 needs to be taken into account.

1 Corinthians 11:3 (ESV),



Any church model or system of organization MUST not deviate from this teaching.

There are no two-headed monsters in the Church of the Living God.

As a married man, I alone am my wife's "head", just as Christ alone is my "head", just as only God is the "head" of Christ.

For anyone to attempt to interfere with this hierarchy is to usurp not only the husband's place in his wife's life, but to also USURP CHRIST'S PLACE in the husband's life, which is to USURP GOD'S PLACE in Christ's life.

You do this at your absolute peril. When Simon Peter attempted to control Christ's life by attempting to stop the Lord's journey to Jerusalem and the Cross, the Lord Jesus rebuked Simon in front of everyone and called him "a satan", i.e. an adversary, who didn't care for the things of God.

Attempting to make yourself another head in someone else's life makes you "a satan, who doesn't care for the things of God".

Simon Peter, having learned his lessons, came to write this:

1 Peter 4:14 (ESV),



Simon has just exhorted his audience to imitate Christ's example and learn to suffer patiently and in silence, when being mistreated, even persecuted. But, if you've been accused by being a murderer, or thief, or an evil doer, or a meddler, you should then speak up and defend yourself against any such accusations.

To be accused of being a murderer, or a thief, or an evil doer seems pretty straightforward. But what does it mean to be accused of being a "meddler"?

We probably all know that to meddle means something like to interfere and mess with someone or something that doesn't pertain or belong to the meddler.

But the Scriptures are a little more specific:

Meddler: ἀλλοτριεπίσκοπος (allotriepiskopos), a compound of two Greek terms:

ἀλλότριος (allotrios) and ἐπίσκοπος (episkopos)

ἀλλότριος (allotrios) refers to anything which belongs to another person and ἐπίσκοπος (episkopos), whence we derive the word bishop, refers to someone who has oversight in some particular fashion or manner.

As such, ἀλλοτριεπίσκοπος (allotriepiskopos) means:



See: https://biblehub.com/greek/244.htm

Since the teachings of the Scripture is that the husband is the head of the wife and family, no one but the husband is called to that role. Since the wife is to reverence her husband and only yield to him (See, e.g. Ephesians 5:22-24), anyone attempting to gain another man's wife's reverence and submission is a "meddler".

Furthermore, since children are to obey their parents in the Lord (See, e.g. Ephesians 6:1 and Colossians 3:20), people who pry into and demand someone else's children be obedient to them instead of to their mom and dad, are meddler's.

[votivesoul]

So, then, what about Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, and Teachers?

These are callings of grace, roles and functions within the Body of Christ, for its edification, to help every member fulfill each individual calling to and toward the Lord's Church, equipping every saint for the work of the ministry so that the local congregation can measure up to the fullness of the standard of Christ.

Ephesians 4 makes it pretty clear.

As it pertains to Bishops, Elders, and Deacons, these are facilitators who help organize and administrate the various needs of the Body, up to and including how meetings are to progress and if any points of order are to be addressed. But also, they serve to help with financial needs in the church, they visit the sick and elderly and disabled, act as liaisons to the community at large, are points of connection between churches, and work to establish the local congregation as a functioning body which upholds the standards of the Holy Scriptures so as to represent Christ properly in the world.

As such, they are examples who are called to stand out and show the rest of the congregation what a Godly life is to look like, so others can emulate them. They pattern themselves after Christ, and relay that pattern to everyone else who desires to live the life Christ would have them live.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by esaias

i had heard the correct interpretation of paul's statement was essentially "follow me in the same way i am following christ", ie "i am imitating christ so you should too", not that he was saying "do what i say because i am the archbishop of corinth" or whatever.

But if we take that view we lose a lot of justification for our fancy hats and gold embroidered robes (or fancy suits and hankerchiefs and ties?)

👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽

[Amanah]

Jesus taught obviously but he also lived life in the presence of his disciples so they could learn by seeing practical application. If leadership is by example that would have to mean time spent with people. That can't easily happen in a large congregation.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Jesus taught obviously but he also lived life in the presence of his disciples so they could learn by seeing practical application. If leadership is by example that would have to mean time spent with people. That can't easily happen in a large congregation.

Absolutely correct. Therefore ministry is plural, and we must know them who labor among us. Church is The Body, Commonwealth of Israel. We are connected one to another. No special table at Cracker Barrel, where only the ministry eat. We are all supposed to eat out of the same bowl, drink from the same cup. Each part has it's different job, different skill set. Yet, all working together as one unit. Those large congregations are basically like Home Depot, or Wal Mart. Industrialized Churchanity made to produce a product.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

So, then, what about Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, and Teachers?

These are callings of grace, roles and functions within the Body of Christ, for its edification, to help every member fulfill each individual calling to and toward the Lord's Church, equipping every saint for the work of the ministry so that the local congregation can measure up to the fullness of the standard of Christ.

Ephesians 4 makes it pretty clear.

As it pertains to Bishops, Elders, and Deacons, these are facilitators who help organize and administrate the various needs of the Body, up to and including how meetings are to progress and if any points of order are to be addressed. But also, they serve to help with financial needs in the church, they visit the sick and elderly and disabled, act as liaisons to the community at large, are points of connection between churches, and work to establish the local congregation as a functioning body which upholds the standards of the Holy Scriptures so as to represent Christ properly in the world.

As such, they are examples who are called to stand out and show the rest of the congregation what a Godly life is to look like, so others can emulate them. They pattern themselves after Christ, and relay that pattern to everyone else who desires to live the life Christ would have them live.

Other than the fact I see pastor and teacher as a unit (thus, apostles, prophets, evangelists, and pastors/teachers), I think you hit the nail on the head.