I talk because I am done making excuses to my children why Ibuprophen works but God arriving on the scene is always a major "what-if" with 1000 pre-made reasons why he may not have decided to heal or releave pain, despite his completed work at the hand of the whip operator.
So Ferd, you have a very potent personal family story to establish your thanksgiving for God sending men to invent sythethic drugs. Do I have that right?
come now, your assessment that my view had anything to do with either giving God thanks or not giving God thanks, --was straight out of D.A.'s playbook. No revelance, no application, design to incite human contest.
My point, --my belabored point, was that we do not do well when we call man's sustitutes as being God's remedy/cure.
As shocking as this may seem, I actually would like to see all mankind medication free and have my profession reduced to making oil of myrrh and frankincense. We are in agreement that we should seek Yeshua Rophekha, Jesus Our Healer for deliverance from our infirmities.
We say that the composition of the Epistles were written by Divine Inspiration. Are you saying that the composition of a chemical compound (medications), organic or otherwise (which you refer to as Man's Substitutes) can't be produced by Divine Inspiration?
Isn't The LORD the creator of all things and the Giver of all Wisdom? I'm still amazed at how natural ingredient compositions such as Oscillococcinum and Airborne are as effective as they are in combating the initial symptoms of influenza, and to say that these are not of God is, for me, to say that He is not involved in all things.
__________________
I’m not a scholar, just a crazy Jewish Believer who wants to see no one deceived and everyone saved.
Shalom uv’racha b’shem Yeshua Mishikheinu!
Peace and blessings unto you in the Name of Yeshua, Our Messiah!
I'm convinced you would not even know if you have offended someone. This is not a good quality to have if you plan on being a Pastor. I hope you do become a Pastor and at the same time, hope you gain a sense of awareness and perspective of your surroundings and your future flock.
I chose the field of pharmacy because I wanted to help people and it felt good to know that my profession has roots which go all the way back to the first Temple in the wilderness, when The LORD required the skills of an Apothecary to make the Anointing Oil and Incense for the Priesthood's use. We have the title of 'pharmacist' but we are apothecaries and have been since Aaron.
Are we a pill society? Yes, without question.
Is there is a connection between an apothecary who made the Anointing Oil and the sorcerer from Revelation 9? No.
Is there a connection between the sorcerer from Revelation 9 and today's friendly neighborhood pharmacist? No.
Strong's saying it does not make it so, just like Hitler saying over and over that the Jews were the cause of the world's problems did not make it Truth.
You say it's in the Bible, but it's not. It's actually in Strong's and his colleagues' interpretation of that particular word in Galatians 5 and Revelation 9. Had I known that you are preparing to take the IT world by storm, I would have chosen a more linear form of communicating the following to you:
Strongs ≠ Bible
Strong's is not Bible. Here's an interesting perspective from Wikipedia:
Dr. Strong and his colleagues put together a masterful concordance, but while it is helpful, it is not by any means, 100% accurate. Dr. Strong is not the author and finisher of our faith.
One other thing: I have attended the same Oneness church since I became a Believer in the Messiah since 1996, under the same Pastor who has led scores of people out of life-draining careers and into more spiritually-enriching, satisfying, and prosperous careers. He would not hesitate to tell me if I was engaged in a career associated with sorcery.
May God bless you in your future IT career.
The thing that you fail to realize is that I gave more references than Strong's which said the same thing.
BTW, people get offended by the smallest thing and even Jesus offended people. If we are suppose to be more like Jesus, this attack means little to me. If you want to rant and rave, then go ahead, but I will still believe what I have learned.
Last edited by Oneness Man; 06-19-2008 at 09:06 AM.
Reason: adding words
Wed Jun 18, 8:25 PM EDT
Authorities say a teenager from a faith-healing family died from an illness that could have been easily treated, just a few months after a toddler cousin of his died in a case that has led to criminal charges.
Tuesday's death of 16-year-old Neil Beagley, however, may not be a crime because Oregon law allows minors 14 and older to decide for themselves whether to accept medical treatment.
"All of the interviews from last night are that he did in fact refuse treatment," police Sgt. Lynne Benton said Wednesday. "Unless we can disprove that, charges probably won't be filed in this case."
An autopsy Wednesday showed Beagley died of heart failure caused by a urinary tract blockage.
He likely had a congenital condition that constricted his urinary tract where the bladder empties into the urethra, and the condition of his organs indicates he had multiple blockages during his life, said Dr. Clifford Nelson, deputy state medical examiner for Clackamas County.
As shocking as this may seem, I actually would like to see all mankind medication free and have my profession reduced to making oil of myrrh and frankincense. We are in agreement that we should seek Yeshua Rophekha, Jesus Our Healer for deliverance from our infirmities.
We say that the composition of the Epistles were written by Divine Inspiration. Are you saying that the composition of a chemical compound (medications), organic or otherwise (which you refer to as Man's Substitutes) can't be produced by Divine Inspiration?
Isn't The LORD the creator of all things and the Giver of all Wisdom? I'm still amazed at how natural ingredient compositions such as Oscillococcinum and Airborne are as effective as they are in combating the initial symptoms of influenza, and to say that these are not of God is, for me, to say that He is not involved in all things.
Neubill,
according to your faith, be it unto you.
BUT....
faith is not what we want or wish for, FAITH is what we know is settled because we have heard God (speaking to us) declare it 'to be'.
I have PAINFULLY avoided making any reference to naturally-occurring compounds that could be ingested by some means (consuming, applying, breathing) that occurs in God's creation. That is why I belabored the word SYNTHETHIC as my category for contrast.
God is willing, and has provided a means, for his creation to function with a quality of life; healing, deliverance, a sound mind.
When God provides a good gift to his children who should get the glory?
Note: the following is just an example of to illustrate my point:
Is developing sythethic inhibitors/suppressors that deploy a broad specturm effect to thwart the body's immune response, a God-sourced remedy/cure or a man-sourced management system? similarly:
Is ingesting Ibuprophen or Aspirin or acetomiaphin or whatever, God's provision of a healing (cure) for fever management?
IMO, absolutely NOT!
I can not participate in any affirmation that God's wisdom is revealed in these synthethic, man-made answers that BLOCK the signal from the brain that would elevate the body's temperature to counteract a resident infection.
Neubill, my contribution to this thread is motivated by a compelling desire to sort out who is involved in what.
I am certainly willing to give credit to man for creating synthethic compounds that minipulate the human body's chemistry. Many of which, though blantantly non-curative, do provide mangement of one particular symptom for as long as user can obtain the compound, successfully process the compound, and cope with the new symptoms that result from the compound.
I also am very willing to give praise and honor to my Lord who suffered the scourge to provide my access to healing.
I am not willing to interweave the two.
__________________
Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath [James 1:19]
Neubill,
according to your faith, be it unto you.
BUT....
faith is not what we want or wish for, FAITH is what we know is settled because we have heard God (speaking to us) declare it 'to be'.
I have PAINFULLY avoided making any reference to naturally-occurring compounds that could be ingested by some means (consuming, applying, breathing) that occurs in God's creation. That is why I belabored the word SYNTHETHIC as my category for contrast.
God is willing, and has provided a means, for his creation to function with a quality of life; healing, deliverance, a sound mind.
When God provides a good gift to his children who should get the glory?
Note: the following is just an example of to illustrate my point:
Is developing sythethic inhibitors/suppressors that deploy a broad specturm effect to thwart the body's immune response, a God-sourced remedy/cure or a man-sourced management system?
Is ingesting Ibuprophen or Aspirin or acetomiaphin or whatever, God's provision of a healing (cure) for fever management? IMO, absolutely NOT!
I can not participate in any affirmation that God's wisdom is revealed in these synthethic, man-made answers that BLOCK the signal from the brain that would elevate the body's temperature to counteract a resident infection.
Neubill, my contribution to this thread is motivated by a compelling desire to sort out who is involved in what.
I am certainly willing to give credit to man for creating synthethic compounds that minipulate the human body's chemistry. Many of which, though blantantly non-curative, do provide mangement of one particular symptom for as long as user can obtain the compound, successfully process the compound, and cope with the new symptoms that result from the compound.
I also am very willing to give praise and honor to my Lord would suffered the scourge to provide my access to healing.
I am not willing to interweave the two.
Amen Brother!!!! I don't know why some make a big deal that there are Apostolics who choose to use prayer to be healed rather than using drugs to take care of the symptoms, but not take care of the problem. Instead, they rant and rave because they are in the field that makes the drugs and doesn't like what the Bible says about it.
I talk because I am done making excuses to my children why Ibuprophen works but God arriving on the scene is always a major "what-if" with 1000 pre-made reasons why he may not have decided to heal or releave pain, despite his completed work at the hand of the whip operator.
So Ferd, you have a very potent personal family story to establish your thanksgiving for God sending men to invent sythethic drugs. Do I have that right?
come now, your assessment that my view had anything to do with either giving God thanks or not giving God thanks, --was straight out of D.A.'s playbook. No revelance, no application, design to incite human contest.
My point, --my belabored point, was that we do not do well when we call man's sustitutes as being God's remedy/cure.
PewMan, let me quote from you:
But please, don't attribute God's active/purposed hand to leading men to be delvelopers of sythethic chemcials that you must commit to purchase and then ingest or inject into your bloodstream for the rest of your life...all to be a recipient of his provision of well-being for your circumstance.
I get at least to some degree what you are saying.... and if I offended you with my approach i am sorry. it wasnt my intention but I was in that last bit, addressing your above comment.
I DO give thanks to God that we found the best Doctor in our area to treat our son. and I DO give thanks to God for the availbility of medication that stablized our sons heart until he became well.
You and I dont agree on this point.
thats fine.
i am FOR God healing people. I have been blessed by God to used in healing ministry. I believe in healing with all that is in me.
I am also pragmatic enough to know that there are times when a good doctor is the best perscription.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
Amen Brother!!!! I don't know why some make a big deal that there are Apostolics who choose to use prayer to be healed rather than using drugs to take care of the symptoms, but not take care of the problem. Instead, they rant and rave because they are in the field that makes the drugs and doesn't like what the Bible says about it.
O.M.
I am not immediately sure if our participation in this topic is motivated by the same prompts.
Any honest-hearted person who has been a part of 'apostolic' assemblies for 3 years or more, has seen VERY LITTLE evidence (signs) that God is consistently a healer.
It seems likely (to me) that many of us have either received a discernable healing or supernatural deliverance or are well acquainted with someone who has.
Despite the awareness that this kind of GOOD NEWS is present in our assemblies, the normal sequence of events involving disease (among those who claim to be of the assembly of the saints) involving symptoms that are treatable by a man-made approach, the course of action that normally is found to help is the man-made one.
I do NOT fault people for following their confidence. To act contrary to your confidence is foolishness.
I do not blame specific persons or offices for the sarscity of God's healing being manifested in our community that claims fellowship in God's spirit.
This area is just a troubling, sad vacancy between what we see in scripture and what we experience in our assemblies.
__________________
Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath [James 1:19]
O.M.
I am not immediately sure if our participation in this topic is motivated by the same prompts.
Any honest-hearted person who has been a part of 'apostolic' assemblies for 3 years or more, has seen VERY LITTLE evidence (signs) that God is consistently a healer.
It seems likely (to me) that many of us have either received a discernable healing or supernatural deliverance or are well acquainted with someone who has.
Despite the awareness that this kind of GOOD NEWS is present in our assemblies, the normal sequence of events involving disease (among those who claim to be of the assembly of the saints) involving symptoms that are treatable by a man-made approach, the course of action that normally is found to help is the man-made one.
I do NOT fault people for following their confidence. To act contrary to your confidence is foolishness.
I do not blame specific persons or offices for the sarscity of God's healing being manifested in our community that claims fellowship in God's spirit.
This area is just a troubling, sad vacancy between what we see in scripture and what we experience in our assemblies.
Now here is a point of agreement. I do agree that ideally, we would trust God instead of medicine, especially when medicine crosses the point from helpful to harmful or equally harmful. However, you are right--over the years, I have seen people healed--and people die. People healed from cancer, and people died from cancer. Folks healed of chronic conditions, and others left to suffer with it for a lifetime. Do I understand it? No. Ideally, it would not be the case. I believe God is our healer, and I don't believe it was just for the early church.
But experience has taught me to pray AND seek medical attention. There is an element of sadness within that dichotomy.
Especially when it comes to my children...I may choose to endure an illness for myself, but I'm less inclined to ask the same of my children.
To be blunt, there have been times when I have prayed for my children, and they were healed. At other times, I have prayed for them, and nothing happened. I will not sit around with a sick child and wait to see what happens.
__________________
"God, send me anywhere, only go with me. Lay any burden on me, only sustain me. And sever any tie in my heart except the tie that binds my heart to Yours."
--David Livingstone
"To see no being, not God’s or any, but you also go thither,
To see no possession but you may possess it—enjoying all without labor or purchase—
abstracting the feast, yet not abstracting one particle of it;…."
--Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass, Song of the Open Road
But please, don't attribute God's active/purposed hand to leading men to be delvelopers of sythethic chemcials that you must commit to purchase and then ingest or inject into your bloodstream for the rest of your life...all to be a recipient of his provision of well-being for your circumstance.
I get at least to some degree what you are saying.... and if I offended you with my approach. but I was in that last bit, addressing your above comment.
I DO give thanks to God that we found the best Doctor in our area to treat our son. and I DO give thanks to God for the availbility of medication that stablized our sons heart until he became well.
You and I dont agree on this point.
thats fine.
i am FOR God healing people. I have been blessed by God to used in healing ministry. I believe in healing with all that is in me.
I am also pragmatic enough to know that there are times when a good doctor is the best perscription.
Ferd,
I am completely confident that God is merciful, patient and kind. He is not waiting to punish us for our various attempts at managing the circumstances that we find ourselves in.
We are on safe ground as long as we can discern when we are participating in a man-system OR a God-system.
My lament, is when we mix the two.
I often give thanks to God for the successful administration of many systems that are fully man-made. I am thanking him for something that he coded into the mind and heart of his creature....and the creature has acted upon these God-sourced prompts.
__________________
Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath [James 1:19]
Wed Jun 18, 8:25 PM EDT
Authorities say a teenager from a faith-healing family died from an illness that could have been easily treated, just a few months after a toddler cousin of his died in a case that has led to criminal charges.
Tuesday's death of 16-year-old Neil Beagley, however, may not be a crime because Oregon law allows minors 14 and older to decide for themselves whether to accept medical treatment.
"All of the interviews from last night are that he did in fact refuse treatment," police Sgt. Lynne Benton said Wednesday. "Unless we can disprove that, charges probably won't be filed in this case."
An autopsy Wednesday showed Beagley died of heart failure caused by a urinary tract blockage.
He likely had a congenital condition that constricted his urinary tract where the bladder empties into the urethra, and the condition of his organs indicates he had multiple blockages during his life, said Dr. Clifford Nelson, deputy state medical examiner for Clackamas County.
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