John3 and Romans2: Part2

[donfriesen1]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Ok, you say “right living” individuals who followed God’s moral law which you see as the conscience go to heaven?

Yes, or no?

Here's your 'yes or no' as requested Evang.Benincasa. I'd re-word your question this way: Ok, you say "right living" individuals who followed God's moral law which you see as the image of God go to heaven? What is wrong about an individual sinning is that it mars the image of God placed in Man, it makes God look bad when we are supposed to reflective his holy image. When your girls act wrong they reflect on you, their parent. By their wrong actions they portray you as teaching them a bad code, when you're not.

The conscience witnesses to God's eternal moral code which is placed in Man when made in the image of God (the code is within his being. The conscience is not itself the code, as shown on Ro2.15 conscience also bearing witness, witnessing to something other than itself). When Man recognizes the conscience by obedience, they are in effect yielding to the one who instilled the moral code and conscience, saying yes to the creator, following his ways and not the sinful impulses of their own ways. This exhibits faith in God and not self-righteous own good works, contrary to what you and Esaias and Amanah have contended in saying it is salvation by good works. And you are capable of changing your views.

These follow God's ways and not their own sinful heart. By your (including E and A) descriptions of all people you seem to suggest that all love only to sin and that it is impossible for any of the many sinners to feel that they are living wrong as sinners. But some feel wrong. You seem to deny that any can have pains of sin coming from within them. But some do. You seem to contend that the only way that someone can see remorse for sin is when convicted by the Word (when conscience and the Spirit can do this also, without the help of the Word). Ro1 refutes that idea and shows that Man is capable by deductive reasoning to recognise, from creation alone, God, and no doubt much more than just God. v20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, Your view of Man is that he is incapable of understanding right and wrong outside of knowledge of the Word, while the Bible shows a God much more capable than that, making Man able to seeHis eternal power and Godhead by the means of things. Imagine that, able to know about God from things! Plz, Evang.Benincasa open your eyes to the greatness of God's abilities, including the conscience.

You forgot to mock me, Evang.Benincasa. You're slipping.

What's going on with you? Are you weakening, wavering in your stance? If so, come over to the Kool-Aid side -- its delicious!

[donfriesen1]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Bro, do you even lift?

Plz answer this question, yes or no, Evang.Benincasa.

Does Ro5.13 show God does not judge people who don't know the Word as if they do know the Word? (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Bring it on brother Dom.

[Amanah]

Book of Romans thesis Statement:
The Gospel of Jesus Christ, received by faith, is the power of God for salvation to all who believe, Jew and Gentile alike, revealing God's righteousness and reconciling humanity to Himself.

Supporting Arguments:

(Romans 1:1-17)
Gospel as power of God for salvation

(Romans 1:18-3:20)
- God's wrath against human sin and idolatry
- Universal sinfulness and guilt
- Jewish culpability under the Law

(Romans 3:21-5:21)
- Righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ
- Justification by faith
- Abraham as example of faith

(Romans 6:1-8:39)
- Union with Christ in death and resurrection
- Freedom from sin and slavery to righteousness
- Life in the Spirit

(Romans 9:1-11:36)
- God's plan in the new testament is to save all through obedience to the gospel, Jew and gentile alike.

(Romans 12:1-15:13)
Need the infilling of the Holy Ghost and the ministry of the church to walk after the Spirit

(Romans 15:14-16:27)
Conclusion

This summary outlines the main arguments and themes in the Book of Romans, supporting the thesis statement that obedience to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and walking after the Spirit is the power of God for salvation.

[donfriesen1]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

For anyone needing to be brought up to speed on this thread. Esaias ended this debate literally in the first portion of this thread. The primary issue we are now dealing with is an individual who cannot deal with being wrong. Esaias did a great job posting the Biblical irrefutable proof on Romans.

Evang.Benincasa quotes Esaias who says Originally Posted by Esaias View Post 8
Moving from the other thread to here to consolidate the discussion:

I think you have misinterpreted (or misapplied) this passage in Romans to unregenerate persons. Paul speaks of these gentiles as "showing the work of the law written in their hearts". The Bible identifies the writing of the law in the heart as a key element of the new covenant: I've replied to this post before, but I'll repeat myself. Any who have the gospel also have the law. It would be wrong to say these 'who have the law written on their hearts' do so from the Spirit, being the regenerate. Paul, not donfriesen1, says these Gentiles not having the law. If they don't have the law then they can't have the gospel, because any with the gospel also have the law. Paul, not donfriesen1, says, what these gentiles do by nature results in the work of the law written in their hearts. The context of the passage shows that the nature is the conscience and not the Word or the Spirit. Therefore these gentiles are unregenerate. Any unflinchingly agreeing with this agree with the unflinching ing rock of the Word. Why would anyone ever not want to agree with God?

But nice try Evang.Benincasa, this does not show that Esaias has irrefutedly proved what he says. But, plz, do keep trying.

Evang.Benincasa says The primary issue we are now dealing with is an individual who cannot deal with being wrong. which may be the case of others posting in this thread. What say you Evang.Benincasa. Yes or no: do you refute the idea that these gentiles are unregenerate, contradicting Paul/the Word? Or should I say nevermind because I think you will answer Yes and you will contradict the logic which says those who have the gospel also have the law. Amanah will say Yes because her undispensationalist views say any who have the new covenant have all covenants. Are you a dispensationalist or an undispensationalist?

God and his Word are one and when we receive the Spirit we receive the Word. And for what purpose? To direct us for right living, may be a partial answer. But right living can also be directed by other means. Among them: preaching, reading the Word and Christian books, listening to our parents instructions as kids, Christian singing, etc, etc. Therefore it is not improbable that we can be directed by another method, the God-instilled conscience. The Spirit and the conscience are God-infused methods to direct us to right-living, while the others are external. Whether the Word comes directly to our spirit or via the eyes, ears to the brain to the spirit, it makes no difference as long as our living lines up with God's will. God has not limited himself to one way, the infused Word by the Spirit, of reaching our hearts and actions, as implied by Esaias and Dom.

Jeremiah 31:31-33 KJV
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: [32] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: [33] But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Hebrews 8:6-10 KJV
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. [7] For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. [8] For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: [9] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. [10] For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

The old covenant did not produce a people that bore the fruits of righteousness, Errr,...what about Moses, David, Daniel, Joseph....Mary...reflecting God's moral character in their lives. The new covenant was established to remedy that problem, to produce obedience, to produce a people who did in fact reflect the character of our Father:

Romans 8:3-7 KJV
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: [4] That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. [5] For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. [6] For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. [7] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

So then when Paul speaks of the uncircumcised actually doing the things contained in the law, thus showing the "work of the law written in their hearts", these must of necessity be regenerated persons, people in the new covenant, who have experienced the writing of God's law in the heart by the Spirit of God, even though they are not physically circumcised.

So it seems the context of Paul's words is those who are in the new covenant Yes, exactly. The context is a NT writer writes to NT people about NT-time gentiles, who don't have the Word., that the uncircumcised (gentile Christian) would be justified rather than the circumcised (Jewish non-christian), that the disobedient but circumcised Jew would fare worse than the obedient but uncircumcised Christian.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

Plz answer this question, yes or no, Evang.Benincasa.

Does Ro5.13 show God does not judge people who don't know the Word as if they do know the Word? (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Bring it on brother Dom.

Don, the New Testament doesn't teach any salvation outside of Christ. The entire New Testament teaches against your heretical doctrine of "follow your conscience" leads to heaven. 2 Peter 3:15-16 speaks to individuals as yourself you are deaf to the Holy Ghost. You are far gone and have left the path long ago.

2 Peter 3:15-16

And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved Brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Romans 5:13 doesn't mean God will not judge the sinners because of the absence of the Law of Moses. Adam and Eve broke God's law (not to eat of the tree) Hence they were judged guilty and removed from the garden. Cain slew his brother Abel. Cain sinned the sin of murder, and was judged. He was sent out of God's presence and the ground would no longer yield to him. God told Noah to build an ark to save 8 people. All because God judged the entire inhabited earth for their sin. Sodom was judged for breaking God's law. Condemned for their sin, and destroyed. Sin is breaking God's law, and if you break that law you are judged. Adam was not deceived, but Eve was deceived and became a transgressor. transgressing what? God's law. If there was no law, then how could Pharaoh Genesis 12:10-20, and Abimelech Genesis 20:1-18 have God judging them for adultery? No one is being led by the conscience, in any of these examples. They are communicating with God almighty. Just like Cornelius, the Ethiopian Eunuch, Peter, and the Apostle Paul. Sin was in the world from Adam to Moses. Sin, to be sin you must transgress the law of God. Paul isn't teaching what you currently believe.

There was transgression of God's law ever since Adam to Moses. Paul was saying that no one could say since there wasn't the "Law of Moses" present those from Adam to Moses were absolved of sin. Everyone from Adam to Moses still needed a Savior. With Adam all men died spiritually, with Jesus Christ all men are made alive forever. All men who come to Jesus Christ through the water baptism in Jesus name and the infilling of the Holy Ghost evidence of speaking in other tongues. No other way to heaven.

You have utterly failed to prove that men who have never heard of the Gospel are saved. That they can be saved any other way other than the blood of Jesus Christ.

Your doctrine is question begging, and has holes which you are failing to plug up.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

You forgot to mock me, Evang.Benincasa. You're slipping.

What's going on with you? Are you weakening, wavering in your stance? If so, come over to the Kool-Aid side -- its delicious!

Don, you didn't answer my question.

I think you past Kool Aid and are now hitting the Old Grand Dad 114.

[donfriesen1]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

post 445. Thx for this. You've used your available resources and posted something of substance.
Don, the New Testament doesn't teach any salvation outside of Christ.This is the true gospel but what of those who never get a chance to hear it? Paul addresses that in Ro2. The entire New Testament teaches against your heretical doctrine of "follow your conscience" leads to heaven. We should all follow the God-given conscience, right Dom? Right? Of course. 2 Peter 3:15-16 speaks to individuals as yourself you are deaf to the Holy Ghost. You are far gone and have left the path long ago. Nah, the Word I use and the Holy Ghost in my heart says otherwise.

2 Peter 3:15-16

And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved Brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. to quote someone, 'you aren't Paul'.

Romans 5:13 doesn't mean God will not judge the sinners because of the absence of the Law of Moses. Yet it says that sin is not imputed. Can a person be judged but not have sin imputed? Yes, with a temporal judgment but an eternal hell-judgment implies a person's sin is imputed. Theological defn of impute: "ascribe (righteousness, guilt, etc.) to someone by virtue of a similar quality in another". Adam and Eve broke God's law (not to eat of the tree) Hence they were judged guilty and removed from the garden. True, God had spoken law to them, perhaps only a personal command, if not for their descendants also. The judgment was a temporal judgment though their sin was covered by the Blood. Cain slew his brother Abel. Cain sinned the sin of murder, and was judged. He was sent out of God's presence and the ground would no longer yield to him. True, but in the visible absence of a law can we say his judment was an eternal judgment or just a temporal one? What evidence can be shown that it was eternal? God told Noah to build an ark to save 8 people. All because God judged the entire inhabited earth for their sin. As I stated in an earlier post, the sin was not against any given law because Paul says there was no law given to break. You can say there was a law till the cows come home, but it will always contradict Paul. The law broken was God's eternal law recorded in Man by the image of God, I'd say. The reason Paul says that sin was not imputed is that it would be unfair to say to little Johnny "I'm going to punish you for eating those bananas, when not ever previously telling Johnny not to eat bananas". To do so would be unjust and Paul doesn't want to make God look unjust by showing him as eternally punishing sin for which there had been no law spoken. Sodom was judged for breaking God's law. Condemned for their sin, and destroyed. As with Noah's world so with Sodom. You can say God had told them to stop their wicked ways but it is without evidence that there was a law given against how they lived. It is just as correct to say it was sin against the image of God as to say it was sin against given law, when the evidence is lacking for either. Their judgment was temporal and they will be yet judged at the White throne, either eternal heaven or hell, by the conscience. If God saw fit to send a temporal judgment in their day then its unlikely that the conscience judgment at the White Throne will have a contrary outcome. Sin is breaking God's law, and if you break that law you are judged. Yes, an eternal judgment if you had been told it is sin and do it anyway. If your conscience said it was wrong then you broke the internal moral code and will be judged by it. Adam was not deceived, but Eve was deceived and became a transgressor. transgressing what? God's law. Yes, given law was broken. If there was no law, then how could Pharaoh Genesis 12:10-20, and Abimelech Genesis 20:1-18 have God judging them for adultery? Oh boy, you have opened a can of worms here about Pharaoh and Abimilech, which I'll comment on later. No one is being led by the conscience, in any of these examples. You are speaking too much of that which is not stated. How can you authouritatively make such a statement without any evidence? Rather, make a qualified statement, such as 'they may have...'. They are communicating with God almighty. You are speaking too much of that which is not stated. Just like Cornelius, the Ethiopian Eunuch, Peter, and the Apostle Paul. Sin was in the world from Adam to Moses. Yes. Sin, to be sin you must transgress the law of God. True and the question then becomes: was it the internal moral code of the image of God or was it a spoken commandment, and contradicting Paul who says there was no law. An explanation must be found which does not contradict Paul (God's Word) or an suitable explanation made to explain away what he clearly says when he said there was no law. I've provided a logical explanation supported by the scriptures. You, on the other hand, flap your lips without evidence. Paul isn't teaching what you currently believe. Or you aren't teaching what Paul teaches. You plainly state that there had to be law when Paul says there was no law, contradicting Paul. Paul also says of these Gentiles in Ro2 that they do not have the law. You plainly say those of Ro2 had to have had the law in their hearts by the Spirit, contradicting the logic which says they that any who have the gospel must also have the law. They cannnot therefore have had the gospel and must have had the law in their hearts by another means, which Paul says was by nature, not by the law they don't have nor the Spirit. When will you stop contradicting the Word and good logical reasoning? ...Waiting.


TO BE CONTINUED...

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[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

You are speaking too much of that which is not stated. How can you authouritatively make such a statement without any evidence?

Don, for you to make the above statement is a laugh.

Again, you failed in your attempt to prove anything concerning that men are saved by their own righteousness.

That they can follow their own conscience which somehow is motivated by God's Moral law?

I see you stayed away from my question concerning those who have never had the Gospel presented to them. If they would go up in the rapture? Or maybe you did? That only those who had the Gospel and obeyed the Gospel would go up in the rapture? While the "right living" individuals went through the 7 years of tribulation? Getting beheaded by the Russians and Arabs?

So, do the "right living" people go up in the rapture before the tribulation? or do they stay here to be beheaded by Nicolae Carpathia?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

An explanation must be found which does not contradict Paul (God's Word) or an suitable explanation made to explain away what he clearly says when he said there was no law.

Don, let me interpret the above to what you really mean.

An explanation must be found which does not contradict what Don believes the Apostle Paul to be saying.

Sounds good to me.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

The law broken was God's eternal law recorded in Man by the image of God

No where in the Bible do we find this.

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

I'd say.

That's your biggest problem.

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

The reason Paul says that sin was not imputed is that it would be unfair to say to little Johnny "I'm going to punish you for eating those bananas, when not ever previously telling Johnny not to eat bananas".

Don, Just from the conclusions that anyone would reach reading what you have been posting. Little Johnny through God's eternal law recorded in Little Johnny by the image of God. God's Moral Law would of convicted Little Johnny. Therefore in order for Little Johnny to be "right living" he would instinctively knew eating bananas were sin. Yet, man is diametrically opposed to God. The imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth. Therefore since Adam allowed Eve to eat from the fig tree of good and evil (the law). They closed access to the olive tree of life (the Body of Christ). We all need the death, burial, and resurrection. No baptism in Jesus name, or the infilling of the Holy Ghost with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues? Would cause Little Johnny to die lost. No matter how many bananas he refuse to eat.

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

To do so would be unjust and Paul doesn't want to make God look unjust by showing him as eternally punishing sin for which there had been no law spoken.

There you go again judging God, and His apostles by your religious standards.

The Apostle Paul, would definitely say you would miss the rapture.

But, seriously, Paul in Romans 4:8 (you know the chapter before 5) quotes Psalm 32:1–2. Romans 4:8 uses the Psalm like this, blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. Sadly you are clueless of what the Gospel of Jesus Christ is about. The first man Adam was the Lawbreaker. The second Man Jesus was the Lord from Heaven, the Law giver. The Gospel is about God's grace. Adam and Eve were judged for breaking God's Law, and therefore instead of being killed, they were given grace. Cain murdered his brother. Cain was judged. Instead of God killing him, he was given grace. Noah and seven others were given grace. Because they knew and obeyed God's Law. Which God told them. God spoke with Moses face to face and gave Moses grace. Not one of these individuals I have mentioned had to rely on their own conscience. Nor do we read that man's conscience is enhanced by God's Moral Law. Where sin is not imputed means to make payment. God should of killed the first couple. But allowing them to leave the garden until the Christ would come to redeem them was grace.

Don, as I said pages of posts ago. Religion has messed you up something fierce. To you the Apostle and God seem hateful and cruel. So much so that you need to fix them. That you need to be the savior to them. But, the reality is that in Romans we have the best promise to all man kind. That promise is a loving God who grants us grace. If we will just be washed in His blood, and filled with His Spirit. That Spirit will guide us as a good pastor beside still waters. He will restore our souls and lead us into all Truth. Man's conscience void of Christ has done him nothing but ill. Men guided by their own hearts sure not right living as per God's standard. You should pray Don, and ask Jesus to show you the Truth of His Gospel. Get filled with the Holy Ghost.