You Be The Judge: Afp1996 vs Jason

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Jason

Thank you elder.
The comment on Paul was just a general "He saw the light comment". FP's should see the light. Certainly no one would be so foolish as to think Paul believed in the doctrine these men espouse.......then again, I've seen some outrageous hermenutics from some fellows.

Thanks for pointing that out so I could clarify.

Just funning. Again you did a great job defending the Bible Doctrine concerning "The Blessed Hope."
Jesus is coming the Atheist-Agnostic-nor Preterist can stop Him.

[TK Burk]

Jason, who exactly is it that you say needs the pom-poms?

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Jason I congradulate you on your last post it was totally wonderful. You buried them in the Word of God.
Concerning your last statement about Paul in this post. Paul never did believe that foolishness.

Originally Posted by Jason

Thank you elder.
The comment on Paul was just a general "He saw the light comment". FP's should see the light. Certainly no one would be so foolish as to think Paul believed in the doctrine these men espouse.......then again, I've seen some outrageous hermenutics from some fellows.

Thanks for pointing that out so I could clarify.

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Jason I congradulate you on your last post it was totally wonderful. You buried them in the Word of God.
Concerning your last statement about Paul in this post. Paul never did believe that foolishness.

Eld. Epley, Jason's last post explained how he DID NOT KNOW and also what HE BELIEVED, but nowhere did he prove ANYTHING about a gap in Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, or Daniel's 69th and 70th Weeks. Elder, where exactly did he bury anyone in that post except himself?

I even told him that if he could give the verses he claimed he had already posted a "hundred times," that I would repent of my AFP beliefs right here on AFF. If he had felt he had done that, he would be calling for my repentance. Yet, where in his last post do you find him asking for that? Elder, this shows that even Jason knew that he did not prove anything.

Eld. Epley, evidently you either did not reading what Jason posted, or you are so wishful that a dispensationalist (ANY dispensationalist) will finally do what you have never been able, which is namely to show where a gap is mentioned in those chapters and in Daniel's 69th and 70th Weeks, that you are reduced to 'amening' anything.

The one thing I agree with Jason over is that you dispensationalists do need pom-poms!

[TK Burk]

AGAIN!!!

Eld. Epley, why won't you answer this??

Originally Posted by TK Burk

Eld. Epley? You never did prove your assertion that the word "GENERATION" in Matthew 24:34 is “RACE.” Any reason why you did not do this??

To help your memory, the following is where you first claimed this and where I first asked you to explain.…

[TK Burk]

AGAIN!!!

Eld. Epley, why won't you answer this??

Originally Posted by TK Burk

Eld. Epley??

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

There are ceremonial washings in the OT there are NO baptisms in the OT.

Originally Posted by TK Burk

Let me make sure you're saying what it appears. Are you saying that there is no immersions in the OT?

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

I think that's what the Elder is saying. Is that what you are saying Elder Epley?

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by Jason

I would like to request to admins to add POM-POMS smileys, especially for you FP's. You guys hands are probably swollen from patting each other on the back all of the time.

. . .

Pom-poms:



Finally, I have something of value to contribute to this thread! (Besides asking who won, now and then!)

BTW, who won?

[StillStanding]

Originally Posted by Timmy

Pom-poms:



Finally, I have something of value to contribute to this thread! (Besides asking who won, now and then!)

BTW, who won?

Here is my contribution:

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Jason

Bro. Burk, you know the verses I use. Namely Daniel 9:24-27, specifically verse 27.

The scripture seems to give us a gap between the 69th and 70th weeks. I do realize that this verse is highly debated, many do belive there is a gap, while some do not.
The reason I lean toward there being a gap is that the abomination of desolation is spoken of here, is said to happen in the middle of the 70th week. It is also referenced in Daniel 11:31 and Daniel 12:11.

Here is some info for you to consider.

The gap idea is a new kid on the block. I think it never existed in any church until classic Disp's origin in 1830.

Look at the belief in the 1500's.

I have been enjoying the confirmation against the gap theory from the 1599 GENEVA Bible study notes.

Dan 9:27 And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

The pret. idea of no gap puts the focus of the seventy weeks of Daniel upon the cross. If that doesn't get your fire burning, what can? lol


It shows Jesus confirming a covenant with Israel by preaching the gospel. The NT teaches the Gospel CONFIRMS Abraham's covenant.

Galatians 3:17 KJV And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

And the detail about causing sacrifice to cease through the cross is also NOTED in the NT in Hebrews 10.

Heb 10 says the sacrifices would CEASE to be offered if one could be offered that would make the comers perfect.

Hebrews 10:1-2 KJV For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. (2) For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

One DID COME!

Hebrews 10:14 KJV For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

So here was have an interpretation of Daniel 9:27 that proposes the same thing that explicit teachings in the New testament, as opposed to the idea that there is a gap based merely upon the SIMILARITY OF WORDING used in Dan 8 and 11. Meanwhile, there is no explicit teaching in the New Testament that suggests anything near the idea of antichrist ending sacrifices as New Testament teaching perfectly mirrors our interpretation of Christ ending it by the cross.

This is a perfect example of how preterism takes only what the NEW TESTAMENT says about issues and applies them to prophecies, whereas Dispensationalism's gap makes up fanciful stories and uses mere similarity of terms, such as abomination in Dan 8 and 11.

We argue the abomination of Dan 8 and 11 already occurred with Antiochus Epiphanes as the book of Maccabees shows, while we treat Maccabees as merely a historical confirmation and not inspired scripture.

As Daniel mentions no gap, and the idea of inserting a gap longer than the entire period of 70 weeks put together sounds silly, I suggest disp's rethink the gap theory. The entire point of speaking of a certain period of time, like 70 weeks, in order to accomplish something is ridiculous if God inserted a gap of 2,000 + years.

Consider this: It's like me saying I need a board at the length of three feet. I cut of the last inch off a yard stick and join the two pieces of the yard stick with an elastic band. I then find a thirty foot board and stretch the last inch to the end of thirty feet, and then claim it as my three foot board!

Following post quotes from 1 Maccabees...

[mfblume]

Daniel 11:31 KJV And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Daniel 8:13 KJV Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

1 Maccabees 1:20-64

(20) And after that Antiochus had smitten Egypt, he returned again in the hundred forty and third year, and went up against Israel and Jerusalem with a great multitude, (21) And entered proudly into the sanctuary, and took away the golden altar, and the candlestick of light, and all the vessels thereof, (22) And the table of the shewbread, and the pouring vessels, and the vials. and the censers of gold, and the veil, and the crown, and the golden ornaments that were before the temple, all which he pulled off. (23) He took also the silver and the gold, and the precious vessels: also he took the hidden treasures which he found. (24) And when he had taken all away, he went into his own land, having made a great massacre, and spoken very proudly. (25) Therefore there was a great mourning in Israel, in every place where they were; (26) So that the princes and elders mourned, the virgins and young men were made feeble, and the beauty of women was changed. (27) Every bridegroom took up lamentation, and she that sat in the marriage chamber was in heaviness, (28) The land also was moved for the inhabitants thereof, and all the house of Jacob was covered with confusion. (29) And after two years fully expired the king sent his chief collector of tribute unto the cities of Juda, who came unto Jerusalem with a great multitude, (30) And spake peaceable words unto them, but all was deceit: for when they had given him credence, he fell suddenly upon the city, and smote it very sore, and destroyed much people of Israel. [See Daniel 8:25] (31) And when he had taken the spoils of the city, he set it on fire, and pulled down the houses and walls thereof on every side. (32) But the women and children took they captive, and possessed the cattle. (33) Then builded they the city of David with a great and strong wall, and with mighty towers, and made it a strong hold for them. (34) And they put therein a sinful nation, wicked men, and fortified themselves therein. (35) They stored it also with armour and victuals, and when they had gathered together the spoils of Jerusalem, they laid them up there, and so they became a sore snare: (36) For it was a place to lie in wait against the sanctuary, and an evil adversary to Israel. (37) Thus they shed innocent blood on every side of the sanctuary, and defiled it: (38) Insomuch that the inhabitants of Jerusalem fled because of them: whereupon the city was made an habitation of strangers, and became strange to those that were born in her; and her own children left her. (39) Her sanctuary was laid waste like a wilderness, her feasts were turned into mourning, her Sabbath's into reproach her honour into contempt. (40) As had been her glory, so was her dishonour increased, and her excellency was turned into mourning. (41) Moreover king Antiochus wrote to his whole kingdom, that all should be one people, (42) And every one should leave his laws: so all the heathen agreed according to the commandment of the king. (43) Yea, many also of the Israelites consented to his religion, and sacrificed unto idols, and profaned the sabbath. (44) For the king had sent letters by messengers unto Jerusalem and the cities of Juda that they should follow the strange laws of the land, (45) And forbid burnt offerings, and sacrifice, and drink offerings, in the temple; and that they should profane the Sabbath's and festival days: (46) And pollute the sanctuary and holy people: (47) Set up altars, and groves, and chapels of idols, and sacrifice swine's flesh, and unclean beasts: (48) That they should also leave their children uncircumcised, and make their souls abominable with all manner of uncleaness and profanation: (49) To the end they might forget the law, and change all the ordinances. (50) And whosoever would not do according to the commandment of the king, he said, he should die. (51) In the selfsame manner wrote he to his whole kingdom, and appointed overseers over all the people, commanding the cities of Juda to sacrifice, city by city. (52) Then many of the people were gathered unto them, to wit every one that forsook the law; and so they committed evils in the land; (53) And drove the Israelites into secret places, even wheresoever they could flee for succour. (54) Now the fifteenth day of the month Casleu, in the hundred forty and fifth year, they set up the abomination of desolation upon thealtar, and builded idol altars throughout the cities of Juda on every side; (55) And burnt incense at the doors of their houses, and in the streets. (56) And when they had rent in pieces the books of the law which they found, they burnt them with fire. (57) And whosoever was found with any the book of the testament, or if any committed to the law, the king's commandment was, that they should put him to death. (58) Thus did they by their authority unto the Israelites every month, to as many as were found in the cities. (59) Now the five and twentieth day of the month they did sacrifice upon the idol altar, which was upon the altar of God. (60) At which time according to the commandment they put to death certain women, that had caused their children to be circumcised. (61) And they hanged the infants about their necks, and rifled their houses, and slew them that had circumcised them. (62) Howbeit many in Israel were fully resolved and confirmed in themselves not to eat any unclean thing. (63) Wherefore the rather to die, that they might not be defiled with meats, and that they might not profane the holy covenant: so then they died. (64) And there was very great wrath upon Israel.

1 Maccabees 2:1-14

(1) In those days arose Mattathias the son of John, the son of Simeon, a priest of the sons of Joarib, from Jerusalem, and dwelt in Modin. (2) And he had five sons, Joannan, called Caddis: (3) Simon; called Thassi: (4) Judas, who was called Maccabeus: (5) Eleazar, called Avaran: and Jonathan, whose surname was Apphus. (6) And when he saw the blasphemies that were committed in Juda and Jerusalem, (7) He said, Woe is me! wherefore was I born to see this misery of my people, and of the holy city, and to dwell there, when it was delivered into the hand of the enemy, and the sanctuary into the hand of strangers? (8) Her temple is become as a man without glory. (9) Her glorious vessels are carried away into captivity, her infants are slain in the streets, her young men with the sword of the enemy. (10) What nation hath not had a part in her kingdom and gotten of her spoils? (11) All her ornaments are taken away; of a free woman she is become a bondslave. (12) And, behold, our sanctuary, even our beauty and our glory, is laid waste, and the Gentiles have profaned it. (13) To what end therefore shall we live any longer? (14) Then Mattathias and his sons rent their clothes, and put on sackcloth, and mourned very sore.

I propose that if disp teachers knew more history, they would realize these things already occurred in Dan 8 and Dan 11, just as Genesis 6's flood already occurred.

My thoughts, anyway.

[Praxeas]

Clearly who won is going to be divided along eschatological lines...in other words you all are terribly biased lol

But anyways, now that the debate is over, what are your opinions on the over all debate?