Free Seattle

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I'm not saying any more about the issue than this last note, while I'd like you to see how many posts I made about eschatology on a thread that was not about it... But for the record, many times you spoke about music in the church and talked about IHOP and mentioned they are post trib., and post-trib came up many times as the priority in what churches you referred to in posts that were not about prophecy. Personally, I don't even rate a church by what prophetic slant they have, however you always list post-trib in any reference to what a church believes.

Mike, I would say probably in very few if any of the times I mentioned liking IHOP because of post trib did I then start doing a teaching on it. I would usually mention I liked them because of post trib because someone in the thread was condemning them (or me) over this or that and I would try to explain that I support truth wherever it may be.



Nonetheless I should not have said what I said to you here. Carry on.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I think there's enough in the word that we can know Our Lord knows and He revealed it! The seals were unsealed so we could know.

There's a popular opinion that we simply cannot know. Yet REVELATION, as in Book of Revelation, means unveiling, the opposite of not knowing. Howbeit, we do need to be in the Spirit to correctly know. Especially when Revelation said the things were to come to pass shortly after they were written. I think Jesus, especially, interpreted it for us.

Sorry, again. Just threw that thought in there.

Our Lord knows, He is the only one who fully knows, and indeed, I don't doubt that it is all very plainly and clearly written for us to understand all throughout scripture... but our understanding will be hindsight, I do believe.

Look at all the prophecies written about the coming of Jesus, and yet very few really understood what it was all about until after Jesus had died. Some understood in part, but most did not understand at all, and even then, it took Pentecost before many began to understand the full comprehension of what Jesus had been saying.

What has been written for us in scripture will someday make complete sense, and perhaps even some have it right... but it will take the completion of the event before we can all look back and say... ahaha... so that is what You were trying to tell us!

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

I dont think thats true. That I am in an ongoing thread that someone else started on another topic and I bring post trib into it. I seriously doubt you can quote me in any.

You don’t think that’s true? Mike it’s true. If anyone wasted the time to pull up your posting history to wade through your posts. They would not only find comments, but whole mantras on what you believe. But that would be true about every poster on EVERY forum on the Internet. That’s what people do Mike, they talk about what they believe. What the problem is here, is that you just want to point out that someone is speaking of something other than what you believe. So it is you bringing the attention to eschatology. Because you are the eschatolyphile around here. You make sure we know that you are post trib, or some singer, or preacher, or religion is post trib. But you already know this. I had enough of your chest beating over on PalTalk concerning what you believe. So, Mike you are just like everyone you post what you believe. The problem is that you don’t believe you are like everyone. You are better then everyone. You are a sinless man, who knows more Bible than any housewife in Broward County. How do we know this? Because you often remind us.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Our Lord knows, He is the only one who fully knows, and indeed, I don't doubt that it is all very plainly and clearly written for us to understand all throughout scripture... but our understanding will be hindsight, I do believe.

Look at all the prophecies written about the coming of Jesus, and yet very few really understood what it was all about until after Jesus had died. Some understood in part, but most did not understand at all, and even then, it took Pentecost before many began to understand the full comprehension of what Jesus had been saying.

What has been written for us in scripture will someday make complete sense, and perhaps even some have it right... but it will take the completion of the event before we can all look back and say... ahaha... so that is what You were trying to tell us!

Just like I always say.

Christians today believe they know more than Christians yesterday.

Because after all, the Book of the Revelation was meaningless to ALL our predecessors. Those were the guys told to figure an embossed brand which would be a number. The number would be a person’s name? Also these people would have to understand the Greek Alphabet in its numerical form. Yes mam we be smarter than anyone who came before us. We just wait for the evening news to tell us the meaning of the book of Revelation.

[Michael The Disciple]

Dom:

You don’t think that’s true? Mike it’s true. If anyone wasted the time to pull up your posting history to wade through your posts. They would not only find comments, but whole mantras on what you believe.

If it was a thread started by another poster, and it was not in context of end times, and another poster was not baiting me I dont believe very many if any could be found.

That’s what people do Mike, they talk about what they believe. What the problem is here, is that you just want to point out that someone is speaking of something other than what you believe. So it is you bringing the attention to eschatology. Because you are the eschatolyphile around here. You make sure we know that you are post trib, or some singer, or preacher, or religion is post trib.

Yes we talk about what we believe. And I said I should not have said anything about it. I suppose with the Forum hanging by a thread we need any and all discussion we can provide. So IF......it were true that I bring post trib into every discussion going no big deal. It has become standard procudere to forget any topic that was started by someone and go anywhere with it.

I had enough of your chest beating over on PalTalk concerning what you believe.

Chest beating?

The problem is that you don’t believe you are like everyone. You are better then everyone. You are a sinless man, who knows more Bible than any housewife in Broward County. How do we know this? Because you often remind us.

I may not be like everyone else. I have never claimed to be "better" than anyone. As far as being sinless I dont take that as an insult. Do you think anyone is going into the Kingdom Of Heaven with sin in their life? To me to be "sinless" is supposed to be the norm in the Apostolic Christian Faith. If and when anyone myself included has sin in their life they are in great danger.

How do we know this? Because you often remind us.

Again you wrest the life out of anything one might say. No one will find a post or find anywhere on a recording where I claim to be better than anyone. Neither will anyone find one post where I "remind" anyone of such a thing.

When I preach perfection which you would agree we must, usually someone tauntingly, not sincerely will ask "do YOU have sin in your life"? If I answer I do not that would in no way be "beating my chest" or "reminding someone I am better than them".

It would be simply affirming Bible Christianity where we are to "sin not".

You know to be without sin is the "standard" Jesus gave.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

If it was a thread started by another poster, and it was not in context of end times, and another poster was not baiting me I dont believe very many if any could be found.

Mike, in threads about a singer, or a religious group, you will let us all know if they are post trib. Do I or Brother Blume do that? Ah, no. Mike you are no different than anyone else. You have a candy stick, that is beards, Post Trib, Jesus was God's man suit, and demons will one day land on the White House lawn to usher in the Beast.

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Yes we talk about what we believe. And I said I should not have said anything about it. I suppose with the Forum hanging by a thread we need any and all discussion we can provide.

So, you wanted us to discuss Preterism? Really? OK, then why didn't you post more in the eschatological section of this forum? You use to do some drive bys, but you were in no way a contender. That's because all you believe is that Jesus returns after the tribulation. Forget whatever details there might be after that to explain. You just like saying two words post and trib. Everything else is left to assumption and imagination. Religious zealots usually soften up with age, because a little more balanced. But sadly what I have found in churchanity Charismatic a go go, you guys just become flaky and odder as the years go by.

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

So IF......it were true that I bring post trib into every discussion going no big deal. It has become standard procudere to forget any topic that was started by someone and go anywhere with it.

But Mike, that's like all discussion when people are hanging out. Questions arise, and some questions often change the discussion for a few pages. But, listen, you have led may a thread haywire, over your fetish concerning beards or not to beard.

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Chest beating?

meaning of chest beating :conduct or expression marked by pompous or arrogant self-assertion. That's you from day one. From Paltalk to here.

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

I may not be like everyone else.

Actually you are. You are no different or better than anyone else sitting in a pew. Well, you don't sit in a pew, you sit in a room with a computer.

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

I have never claimed to be "better" than anyone.

Well, Mike, this is like a person in a discussion with you who would ask you "do you still sin?" Instead of that you guys go "I have never claimed to be "better" than anyone." No you have never to my knowledge may the proclamation, but you sure do allude to it. Remember you are just like Jesus in thought, and action. Correct?

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

As far as being sinless I dont take that as an insult.

It never was meant to be. But to hold to that belief, and think that someone is using that as a jab, is odd on your part. Because I don't take it as a jab when someone tells me that I believe in Jesus name baptism. Mike, I believe in perfection, as maturity. When you get a driver's license you are under the title SAFE DRIVER. Why? Because you were given a license, not because you had ever driven on the road. From that point you have to maintain that safeness, through behavior on the road. We are saved by grace, and not of works that we can boast about. Therefore a good tree will produce good fruits.

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Do you think anyone is going into the Kingdom Of Heaven with sin in their life? To me to be "sinless" is supposed to be the norm in the Apostolic Christian Faith. If and when anyone myself included has sin in their life they are in great danger.

But you know something, all Christians know that, in all denominations.

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Again you wrest the life out of anything one might say.

But you don't? Mike, are you enamoured by your own voice? Do you listen to your own teachings on tape or own YouTubes? Mike, maybe instead of us wasting our precious time going through the 1,000s of posts you made, maybe you would be better served doing that yourself. But, sadly, I don't think that would work. Because religious people are barnyard nuts to the point even when they see that they are wrong, they twist it up in their minds to make it right. This is called cognitive dissonance. Which I been trying to point that out on this forum for years. But, I have bigger fish to fry in my life, and finally my time here is coming to a curtain call.

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

No one will find a post or find anywhere on a recording where I claim to be better than anyone.

Mike, you don't get it? No one said that to you, I didn't write Michael Gibson SAID that he was better than everyone. No, that's just the takeaway, from reading your own PR in your posts.

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Neither will anyone find one post where I "remind" anyone of such a thing.

When I preach perfection which you would agree we must, usually someone tauntingly, not sincerely will ask "do YOU have sin in your life"? If I answer I do not that would in no way be "beating my chest" or "reminding someone I am better than them".

It would be simply affirming Bible Christianity where we are to "sin not".

You know to be without sin is the "standard" Jesus gave.

Mike, you aren't Jesus.

You may want to look that way, but you are not Jesus.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Is America Mystery Babylon? I think so.

You think incorrectly.

Babylon in the Apocalypse is a power system that controlled the Roman Beast and through that Beast the oikomenos (habitable earth, essentially the area of the Roman Empire). It is the great city "where also our Lord was crucified". Jesus wasn't crucified in New York or Chicago or Washington DC but in Jerusalem.

Your futurism is extremely unsystematic and does not follow any kind of reasonable hermeneutic.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Esaias

You think incorrectly.

Babylon in the Apocalypse is a power system that controlled the Roman Beast and through that Beast the oikomenos (habitable earth, essentially the area of the Roman Empire). It is the great city "where also our Lord was crucified". Jesus wasn't crucified in New York or Chicago or Washington DC but in Jerusalem.

Your futurism is extremely unsystematic and does not follow any kind of reasonable hermeneutic.

The 2 witnesses are killed in Jerusalem not Babylon. No one said differently.

My "futurism" flows nicely with the Bible. Chapter 18 shows the fall of Babylon. The merchants of the earth cry and mourn because no one buys their goods anymore. Jerusalem of 70ad was a besieged, impoverished people. Jerusalem nowadays is pretty much dependent on the USA for its very existence. The merchants of Earth are fully invested in the USA.

The next thing that happens Biblically speaking is the coming of Jesus for the resurrection and the battle of Armageddon. If we dont regard the chapter numbers pretty much the next thing happening is Jesus coming on a white horse gathering his people defeating the armies of Earth and the Beast and throwing Satan in the bottomless pit.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by michael the disciple

the 2 witnesses are killed in jerusalem not babylon. No one said differently.

My "futurism" flows nicely with the bible. Chapter 18 shows the fall of babylon. The merchants of the earth cry and mourn because no one buys their goods anymore. Jerusalem of 70ad was a besieged, impoverished people.

jerusalem nowadays is

pretty much dependent on the usa for its very existence. The merchants of earth are fully invested in the usa.

The next thing that happens biblically speaking is the coming of jesus for the resurrection and the battle of armageddon. If we dont regard the chapter numbers pretty much the next thing happening is jesus coming on a white horse gathering his people defeating the armies of earth and the beast and throwing satan in the bottomless pit.

Not The ISRAEL of the BIBLE!!!!

You know something Mike, this is why no one looks at people like you as having any understanding of world history. The Jews "modern Jews" understand that they are a people of a "religion" not actually descendants of the Bible "Judeans." Hence Zionism was created to give religious Jews an option, to be JEWISH without religion. This is pretty much 101. Israel today has as much to do with the Bible as the Mormons of Utah. They aren't descendants of anyone in the Bible. Not one Jew living today can PROVE that they are descendants of anyone mentioned at any time in the Bible. But you are more in lock step with flat earthers, and Alien abductees. Because no matter how much historical fact and Biblical proof is paraded before you, you will continue to promote fantasy as Bible truth. Israel today? Today? Mike Israel today was created out of whole cloth. Hebrew language was a liturgical language during the time of Christ. By the Medieval times the so called Jews spoke the languages of their birth countries, yet created language as the Ladino, or Yiddish. The Zionists wanted to do away with the Jewish languages, and replace it with Hebrew. Hence Eliezer Ben-Yehuda was the one who spearheaded the revival of Hebrew. Mike, there is NO Biblical Israel, or Judian. In the book of Ezra 2:59-63 and Nehemiah 7:5 we are told how a Judean going back to the promise land was to prove either they were a priest, or a member of the commonwealth of Israel. It was to be done through registry, genealogy. Reason why genealogy is so important in the Bible. Even concerning the advent of the Christ. Yet, with you, that is just a minor glitch. Mike, King James of Scotland once said this, about those who wanted the Jews of his time to return and rebuild Jerusalem. He stated that how could anyone believe that the Jews living in his time could be the same Jews of the Bible? 400 years ago an English King didn't believe what you currently believe. Why? Because what you believe wasn't yet in fashion.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

The 2 witnesses are killed in Jerusalem not Babylon. No one said differently.

My "futurism" flows nicely with the Bible. Chapter 18 shows the fall of Babylon. The merchants of the earth cry and mourn because no one buys their goods anymore. Jerusalem of 70ad was a besieged, impoverished people. Jerusalem nowadays is pretty much dependent on the USA for its very existence. The merchants of Earth are fully invested in the USA.

The next thing that happens Biblically speaking is the coming of Jesus for the resurrection and the battle of Armageddon. If we dont regard the chapter numbers pretty much the next thing happening is Jesus coming on a white horse gathering his people defeating the armies of Earth and the Beast and throwing Satan in the bottomless pit.

Futurism does NOT "flow nicely with the Bible", primarily because the Bible itself does NOT interpret prophecy using the futurist approach or paradigm. When one examines Bible prophecy starting in Genesis and continuing forward, and examines fulfilled prophecy as described in the Scripture itself as well as in known history one discovers that the Bible does not follow futurism's worldview or hermeneutic. Futurists are almost universally ignorant of the bigger picture presented by Bible prophecy, instead focusing on single prophecies (rather myopically) outside of the larger context of the overall message of prophecy.

Your post above is a perfect example of what I am talking about. You immediately begin with Revelation ch 18! You then immediately ASSUME the chapter is speaking of CURRENT events for no reason whatsoever. You see the merchants of the earth mentioned in ch 18, you assume "the merchants of the earth today are vested in the United States", and then you draw the completely unwarranted, unproven, and frankly unjustifiable conclusion the US is Babylon and the chapter refers to imminent events in the future of the US!!!!

Have you ever stopped to ask yourself something like the following: Let's assume you were living in the mid to late 1700s. With YOUR approach to the Bible you would be adamant that Mystery Babylon was the United Kingdom of Great Britain, centered in London. 200 years previously, you would have just as adamantly assumed Mystery Babylon was centered in Madrid. Supposing you live another 100 years you would likely be assuming Mystery Babylon was centered in Beijing (the way things are going, anyway).

But let's back up just a bit. Why do you look at chapter 18 and assume the prophetic clock starts now, in the 20-21st centuries? Why do you assume the book of Revelation shows "things that are to come" but with a near 2000 year GAP OF TOTAL SILENCE until YOU and YOUR generation come along? How is it that you cannot see how completely suspect such an approach is? Just about all Bible prophecy just so happens to devolve down to YOU, YOUR COUNTRY, and YOUR GENERATION? And why? What causes you to even think that? What leads you to that line of thinking?

Anyways, the BIBLE in the Revelation speaks of TWO CITIES, the new and heavenly Jerusalem, and the great city that reigns over the kings of the earth/Babylon/spiritually called Sodom and Egypt/where also our Lord was crucified. This is the same parallel Paul taught about, the difference between the two Jerusalems, one which is above and is the mother of us all, and the other which is in bondage and which persecutes the citizens of the heavenly Jerusalem. The New Testament is indeed "a tale of two cities" but somehow you completely missed the significance of that.

You say the modern city of Jerusalem "nowadays is pretty much dependent on the USA for its very existence". You obviously do not understand history nor do you understand modern geopolitics. This is understandable, though, because neither real history nor reality in general are subjects of instruction in the modern American education system, and haven't been since about the 1930s.

As Paul explained, and as the Revelation itself reveals, neither of the two Jerusalems are limited to literal municipal districts or jurisdictions located in specific geographical locations. They are POWER STRUCTURES, one heavenly, one earthly, one divine, one demonic, one Christian, one TALMUDIC.