when i die

[BrainWashed]

Though I still struggle with some confusion regarding this topic, I would like to share my input.

I remember being taught as a child that once we die, we’re alive with God for evermore. However, it wasn’t until a few years ago that I began questioning our existence after death.

1 Coritinhains 15
50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—
52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.
54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”


Here’s my understanding of the matter.

In reference to the scriptures above, we know that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. We are also told that, “We will not sleep, but we will all be changed,” and "the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.” The bible reads that when the trumpet sounds, then we will be changed to “imperishable” or “immortal.” Isn’t that our hope in Christ, eternal life? Well, if our hope is eternal life, and if we’re already an eternal being, why must we wait for the trumpet’s blast to be made immortal? If we’re perishable and mortal pre-trumpet sound, then we know that we’re not imperishable or immortal. And if we’re not immortal, then we cease existence at death.

The gift of God is eternal life, and the bible reads that we’ll be made eternal at the last trumpet when we’re clothed with the imperishable and immortality. That must conclude that when we die, we’re just a rotting corpse without consciousness until we’re made immortal at the last trumpet.

[Esaias]

Who needs a resurrection if you just fly away to heaven?

[Michael The Disciple]

Brainwashed said

The gift of God is eternal life, and the bible reads that we’ll be made eternal at the last trumpet when we’re clothed with the imperishable and immortality.

Well yes this is the bottom line.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

The context leading up to 2 Cor 5:8 is clearly about THE RESURRECTION.

2 Corinthians 5:1-8 KJV (1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. (2) For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: (3) If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. (4) For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. (5) Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

Same thing here.

Rom 8:18-23

18For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Again in this similar context the relief from the pain of the GROANING CREATION is seen at the RESURRECTION.

Note that he says NOTHING here about immortal souls being with Jesus until this happens.

When does Paul teach the clothing of immortality happens?

AT THE RESURRECTION!

50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 1 Cor 15:50-54

Now the key thing is not only does Paul not mention anything about immortal souls being alive in this context....but also that in the ENTIRE 58 VERSES IN THE CHAPTER he mentions no such thing PERIOD!

But then going back to the CONTEXT of 2 Cor 5:8 we see the TIME FRAME of being with the Lord.6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7(For we walk by faith, not by sight 8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

So the time frame for being with the Lord is the day of judgment! The time of his coming!

So context is definitely not with the "immortal soul" teaching here.

I never said anything about an immortal soul. Will respond more later.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Who needs a resurrection if you just fly away to heaven?

Heaven is not for bodies. Earth is. So the resurrection is needed for man to fulfil the mandate to have dominion over earth. Heaven is NOT our eternal home. The bible does not teach it is. Ruling over earth as God rules heaven is man's purpose in this regard.

[Monterrey]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I do not believe John 14 was speaking of our future, but the place he prepared was a position in the body of Christ. Mansions are the same greek word for abode which is used later in the same chapter speaking of the Father dwelling in us as His abode. He went to the cross to prepare that place for us. That where HE IS, not where he would be, there we would be.

Exactly.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

The context leading up to 2 Cor 5:8 is clearly about THE RESURRECTION.

Amen.

2 Corinthians 5:1-8 KJV (1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. (2) For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: (3) If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. (4) For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. (5) Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

Same thing here.

Rom 8:18-23

18For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Again in this similar context the relief from the pain of the GROANING CREATION is seen at the RESURRECTION.

The groaning in 2 Cor 5 is us in our mortal bodies. We somehow know we should not have mortal bodies nor were meant to have them. We instinctively know something is wrong. We groan to have immortal ones.

Note that he says NOTHING here about immortal souls being with Jesus until this happens.

I said nothing about immortal soul. So I am not even going to address references to it.

When does Paul teach the clothing of immortality happens?

AT THE RESURRECTION!

It's not clothing of immortality, it is clothing of immortal bodies.

50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 1 Cor 15:50-54

Now the key thing is not only does Paul not mention anything about immortal souls being alive in this context....but also that in the ENTIRE 58 VERSES IN THE CHAPTER he mentions no such thing PERIOD!

Moot, as explained.

But then going back to the CONTEXT of 2 Cor 5:8 we see the TIME FRAME of being with the Lord.6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7(For we walk by faith, not by sight 8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

So the time frame for being with the Lord is the day of judgment!

Incorrect. That is not what the context said. Judgment is not the issue of when we're with him. the actual context is saying that we must be acceptable to Him whether or not we're in mortal flesh. Why must we be acceptable? Because we're going to be judged, and only acceptable persons will pass that judgment. It is not say we shall be with him at judgment, even if that is one time we certainly are with him.

Going back before that verse, context said when we're in our current mortal bodies, we are not with the Lord. This is the body in which we groan due to the mortality of that body. But we groan for a NEW IMMORTAL BODY. The context of this chapter is saying the GOAL is to get clothed in the new immortal body. And although we GROAN for an immortal body, it is BETTER to be outside the mortal body and not yet in the immortal one, than to remain in the mortal body, even though our GOAL and preference is to be clothed in immortal bodies. Notice how the term "BETTER" implies we may not yet have what we want with the overall goal of an immortal body, but at least it's better to be outside our mortal ones than to remain in them an absent from the Lord.

So, the mortal bodies not only make us groan due to their mortality, but we are also absent from the Lord. A dual problem. Therefore, leaving the mortal body right now has a dual benefit. We are away from the mortality that makes us groan, and we are present with the Lord.

Then he says whether we are absent or present the most vital thing is to be accepted of Jesus. Whether we're in this world in mortal bodies, or outside this world with Christ, either way we have to be acceptable to Him.

And when it mentions judgment in verse 10 it is not saying that is when we are with the Lord. It's directly responding to the point of why we need to be acceptable. We need to be acceptable whether we're in the mortal flesh or not in it, because we are going to judged one day. It is not saying we are with the Lord at the judgment, whether we are with him or not that's not the point..

[BrainWashed]

MFBlume,

I was taught as an adolescent, we’re with Christ after our death. However, I lean toward us being non-existent/non-consiouness until the trumpet sounds.

However, a few passages seem to cast doubt on my conclusion.

Philippians 1:
21) For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
22) But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
23) For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
24) Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.


Here’s my understanding:

Paul was confronted with a difficult situation as to whether remain in the flesh or depart and be with Christ. He didn’t merely desire to depart this life to die, but his purpose of desiring to depart this life was to be with Christ. We also read in verse 24 that Paul tells the Church at Philippi that it’s more needful for them that Paul remains in the flesh than oppose to dying. This demonstrates to me that simultaneously, Paul could be with Christ after death, while the Church of Philippi remained on Earth. It’s these passages that cast doubt on “non-consciousness” after death until the trumpet sounds.

The gift of God is eternal life, which is our hope when the trumpet sounds. But if Paul through death is able to obtain eternal life after death, how then is eternal life gifted to us when the last trumpet sounds?

Originally Posted by mfblume

Amen.



The groaning in 2 Cor 5 is us in our mortal bodies. We somehow know we should not have mortal bodies nor were meant to have them. We instinctively know something is wrong. We groan to have immortal ones.



I said nothing about immortal soul. So I am not even going to address references to it.



It's not clothing of immortality, it is clothing of immortal bodies.



Moot, as explained.
Incorrect. That is not what the context said. Judgment is not the issue of when we're with him. the actual context is saying that we must be acceptable to Him whether or not we're in mortal flesh. Why must we be acceptable? Because we're going to be judged, and only acceptable persons will pass that judgment. It is not say we shall be with him at judgment, even if that is one time we certainly are with him.

Going back before that verse, context said when we're in our current mortal bodies, we are not with the Lord. This is the body in which we groan due to the mortality of that body. But we groan for a NEW IMMORTAL BODY. The context of this chapter is saying the GOAL is to get clothed in the new immortal body. And although we GROAN for an immortal body, it is BETTER to be outside the mortal body and not yet in the immortal one, than to remain in the mortal body, even though our GOAL and preference is to be clothed in immortal bodies. Notice how the term "BETTER" implies we may not yet have what we want with the overall goal of an immortal body, but at least it's better to be outside our mortal ones than to remain in them an absent from the Lord.

So, the mortal bodies not only make us groan due to their mortality, but we are also absent from the Lord. A dual problem. Therefore, leaving the mortal body right now has a dual benefit. We are away from the mortality that makes us groan, and we are present with the Lord.

Then he says whether we are absent or present the most vital thing is to be accepted of Jesus. Whether we're in this world in mortal bodies, or outside this world with Christ, either way we have to be acceptable to Him.

And when it mentions judgment in verse 10 it is not saying that is when we are with the Lord. It's directly responding to the point of why we need to be acceptable. We need to be acceptable whether we're in the mortal flesh or not in it, because we are going to judged one day. It is not saying we are with the Lord at the judgment, whether we are with him or not that's not the point..

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by BrainWashed

MFBlume,

I was taught as an adolescent, we’re with Christ after our death. However, I lean toward us being non-existent/non-consiouness until the trumpet sounds.

However, a few passages seem to cast doubt on my conclusion.

Philippians 1:
21) For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
22) But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
23) For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
24) Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.


Here’s my understanding:

Paul was confronted with a difficult situation as to whether remain in the flesh or depart and be with Christ. He didn’t merely desire to depart this life to die, but his purpose of desiring to depart this life was to be with Christ. We also read in verse 24 that Paul tells the Church at Philippi that it’s more needful for them that Paul remains in the flesh than oppose to dying. This demonstrates to me that simultaneously, Paul could be with Christ after death, while the Church of Philippi remained on Earth. It’s these passages that cast doubt on “non-consciousness” after death until the trumpet sounds.

The gift of God is eternal life, which is our hope when the trumpet sounds. But if Paul through death is able to obtain eternal life after death, how then is eternal life gifted to us when the last trumpet sounds?

The body is what needs immortal life at the last trumpet. We already have immortal life now as believers...

1Jn 5:13 KJV....These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

But the body itself need to be made immortal.

The body is what sees mortality putting on immortality and corruption putting on incorruption. 1 Cor 15 is about the body only. The great passage you cited in Philippians and 2 Cor 15 is about Paul himself distinct from his body being with Jesus as you note. I've heard the arguments but none of them make sense to say leaving the body and being present with the Lord is a mirage and merely apparent, when in reality we are unconscious.

[BrainWashed]

Originally Posted by mfblume

The body is what needs immortal life at the last trumpet. We already have immortal life now as believers...


1Jn 5:13 KJV....These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

I understand that you're using 1Jn 5:13 to confirm that believers possess immortal life prior to death. However, is it possible that 1Jn 5:13 refers to the believer in future-tense (the resurrection) rather than present-tense?

Originally Posted by mfblume

But the body itself need to be made immortal.
The body is what sees mortality putting on immortality and corruption putting on incorruption. 1 Cor 15 is about the body only. The great passage you cited in Philippians and 2 Cor 15 is about Paul himself distinct from his body being with Jesus as you note. I've heard the arguments but none of them make sense to say leaving the body and being present with the Lord is a mirage and merely apparent, when in reality we are unconscious.

Is it your opinion when the trumpet sounds, our soul will be reunited with our risen imperishable body?

1 Cor 15:55 states that "Death is swallowed up in victory" when the trumpet sounds. Can we really profess that death is swallowed in victory if death only conquers or body and not soul (viewing from eternal soul concept)?

Can you please expound in "when in reality we are unconscious" in your above post?


Thanks,
BW