People eat fatty, unhealthy foods every day, not thinking about the consequences. When they get fat and sick, whether they intended that or not, it was still their choices that got them there.
First, I know people who can eat almost a ton of anything and they don't gain weight. Yet, I know people who gain 5 lbs. by just looking at a chocolate cake. Metabolism is really important.
But... I do get your point.
You believe that a woman forfeits the sovereignty of her person to the government upon having sexual relations.
Try to understand what I'm saying. In life... there are times when circumstance grants another human being power to make life or death decisions. We see this in medicine. I remember when my mom died, I had to decide to cease life saving measures. I was also in the military. Anyone who has been in the military understands that circumstance may grant a human being the authority to take a life. On the battlefield, you have one voluntary American soldier often forced to engage other young soldiers who have been essentially drafted by their nation's dictator and ordered to fight and kill. Neither soldier has anything personal against the other. Most of the time... the average enemy soldier isn't absolutely sold out to his dictator's ideals. They serve to keep their families safe. Yet, these soldiers kill as ordered. There are also times when the criminal justice system grants another human being authority to take another human being's life. Sometimes, it's determined after the fact that it was a mistake. Also, you have the right to defend your home and family with lethal force if you perceive a threat to their lives.
The point is this... EVERY situation wherein a human life is taken is a tragedy. Be it war, medicine, law enforcement, the state execution system, self-defense, etc. It can be argued that even in these situations, the taking of a human life isn't necessarily warranted on a moral level. However, it is legal. Thus, society as a whole decides the circumstances in which one person is granted authority to end another life. In our society, that authority has been extended to women on account of their body being their body and the fruit of their womb belonging to them.
In the case of a woman who is pregnant we have two lives intertwined. You have the mother who is a human being with right over her own person, her body. You also have the fruit of her womb, her unborn. When the question of abortion arises SOMEONE has to have the final authority to make the decision should it be necessary for any number of reasons. Some believe that authority should strictly rest with the government. Some believe it should strictly rest with medical staff. Others believe that ultimately, right or wrong, that authority to should rest with the mother. It is her body. The unborn is the fruit of her womb. To deny her this right would be an assault against her personal sovereignty and authority over the fruit of her womb. To deny this right would essentially be forcing her to carry to term and give birth against her wishes. Therefore, many social libertarians believe that (right or wrong) the final authority should rest with the mother. All moral responsibility rests upon her as an individual before her God. God knows how to judge rightly in cases involving rape, incest, medical circumstance endangering life or health, or if a woman is just using the abortion as a means of birth control. Trust me... God will hold her accountable.
At the end of the day we have to ask ourselves... How much power over a woman's body do we want to grant to the government?
As Christians, we should always encourage women to choose life. We should be prayerful and merciful towards women who face situations involving rape, incest, or if her health is in danger. We should always CONDEMN using abortion as birth control. We should seek to address the issues that women are confronted with when they face an unplanned pregnancy. There is so much that can be done that will both respect the authority of a woman over her own body... and encourage women to choose life.
Luke... a pregnant woman wishes to have an abortion. She's about midway through her first trimester. Do you believe the government should deny her and essentially force her to carry the child to term by law?
The government should not allow her to murder her unborn baby! The government is not forcing her to do anything. She chose to engage in the one activity that could make her pregnant ( unless she is in the .6% involving rape and incest) rather than the government forcing her to give birth the government would be forbidding her to commit murder.
I look at it like this... due to the unique circumstances of pregnancy... the sovereign right of a person over their own body... a woman has authority over not only her body but the fruit of her womb.
This is not about sovereignity over a womans body it is about weather or not a woman has the right to murder an unborn child.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquila
Now, this doesn't mean that I value abortion. I simply believe that at the end of the day someone has to have the authority to make a choice. I'm more comfortable with that choice being in the hands of individual women. I don't believe the GOVERNMENT is capable of truly addressing every circumstance.
Why does someone have to have the right to choose to murder? I understand that if it comes down to the woman or the baby then a choice should be made. This would effectiviely
cut out about 99% of abortions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquila
Now, I can have much mercy on a woman who chooses abortion for medical reasons or in cases of rape or incest. I do believe that abortion merely as birth control is a terrible thing.
There is mercy offered by God for any woman that has an abortion for any reason through repentance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquila
In Judaism, this sovereign right of a woman is often respected. Rabbis often draw a distinction between murder and abortion by siting the following text:
Exodus 21:22-25
King James Version (KJV)
22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
The idea is that if men are fighting and harm a pregnant woman and she miscarries... the husband demands payment for the loss. The judges determine what the payment shall be and impose it. However, if the woman continues to bleed and dies, or suffers in any other way from the confrontation, the law of an "eye for an eye" kicks in. A miscarriage that is the result of confrontation is handled much like loss of property. Remember, this was the ancient view regarding women and the fruit of their womb. Women and children were largely protected property in the Mosaic code.
I really dont think it matters to much to me what a rabbi says on this issue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquila
Please note, according to the Mosaic code unborn children that are the result of an adulterous relationship are not protected. In fact there is a ceremony, trial of jealousy, for women who have been suspect of unfaithfulness. The end result is the destruction of their womb... and any contents.
Numbers 5:11-31
11 And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 12 “Speak to the people of Israel, If any man's wife goes astray and breaks faith with him, 13 if a man lies with her sexually, and it is hidden from the eyes of her husband, and she is undetected though she has defiled herself, and there is no witness against her, since she was not taken in the act, 14 and if the spirit of jealousy comes over him and he is jealous of his wife who has defiled herself, or if the spirit of jealousy comes over him and he is jealous of his wife, though she has not defiled herself, 15 then the man shall bring his wife to the priest and bring the offering required of her, a tenth of an ephah[c] of barley flour. He shall pour no oil on it and put no frankincense on it, for it is a grain offering of jealousy, a grain offering of remembrance, bringing iniquity to remembrance.
16 “And the priest shall bring her near and set her before the Lord. 17 And the priest shall take holy water in an earthenware vessel and take some of the dust that is on the floor of the tabernacle and put it into the water. 18 And the priest shall set the woman before the Lord and unbind the hair of the woman's head and place in her hands the grain offering of remembrance, which is the grain offering of jealousy. And in his hand the priest shall have the water of bitterness that brings the curse. 19 Then the priest shall make her take an oath, saying, ‘If no man has lain with you, and if you have not turned aside to uncleanness while you were under your husband's authority, be free from this water of bitterness that brings the curse. 20 But if you have gone astray, though you are under your husband's authority, and if you have defiled yourself, and some man other than your husband has lain with you, 21 then’ (let the priest make the woman take the oath of the curse, and say to the woman) ‘the Lord make you a curse and an oath among your people, when the Lord makes your thigh fall away and your body swell. 22 May this water that brings the curse pass into your bowels and make your womb swell and your thigh fall away.’ And the woman shall say, ‘Amen, Amen.’
23 “Then the priest shall write these curses in a book and wash them off into the water of bitterness. 24 And he shall make the woman drink the water of bitterness that brings the curse, and the water that brings the curse shall enter into her and cause bitter pain. 25 And the priest shall take the grain offering of jealousy out of the woman's hand and shall wave the grain offering before the Lord and bring it to the altar. 26 And the priest shall take a handful of the grain offering, as its memorial portion, and burn it on the altar, and afterward shall make the woman drink the water. 27 And when he has made her drink the water, then, if she has defiled herself and has broken faith with her husband, the water that brings the curse shall enter into her and cause bitter pain, and her womb shall swell, and her thigh shall fall away, and the woman shall become a curse among her people. 28 But if the woman has not defiled herself and is clean, then she shall be free and shall conceive children.
29 “This is the law in cases of jealousy, when a wife, though under her husband's authority, goes astray and defiles herself, 30 or when the spirit of jealousy comes over a man and he is jealous of his wife. Then he shall set the woman before the Lord, and the priest shall carry out for her all this law. 31 The man shall be free from iniquity, but the woman shall bear her iniquity.”
Note this was a punishment to the woman for sin not an approval of abortion.
No where in the text does it say that the woman was pregnant although one could say that it was at least possible for her to have been pregnant. Still this in no way sanctions murder of babies!
I agree to an extent. But the truth is, people often make love without the intent to have children. I believe most have, if they are honest about it.
Most don't drink in order to drive while intoxicated and kill an innocent individual who had no control over weather the other person drank or not but we still consider the drunk driver a criminal regardless of their intentions
Note this was a punishment to the woman for sin not an approval of abortion. No where in the text does it say that the woman was pregnant although one could say that it was at least possible for her to have been pregnant. Still this in no way sanctions murder of babies!
The waters caused "the curse" (menses), and the womb was to swell and the "thigh" (Hebrew euphemism) was to rot. This process was clearly to designed to render an adulterous woman barren... and to destroy anything living within her womb that didn't belong to her husband. This trial was implemented upon the husband's request.
In addition... the execution of adulteresses caught in the act never facilitated a waiting period wherein pregnancy could be determined. Adulteresses and fornicators were often stoned outside the camp immediately upon discovery. There was absolutely no regard for any life abiding within the womb. Nor measures to protect it.
Let's get biblical...
The Bible advocates for the value of human life. However, the extent and manner in which the Bible values life doesn't entirely jive with the radical notions of the modern Pro-Life Movement (essentially what has become strictly a Republican view point). In the Bible...
-A miscarriage resulting from negligence was handled as though it were the loss of property.
-Women suspected of adultery were presented with a trial by ordeal. If guilty, they were rendered barren and anything growing within the womb was destroyed. If innocent, the water that causes "the curse" (menses) didn't damage the womb.
-Women caught in the very act of adultery (or fornication) were often executed immediately upon discovery. There was no legal concern or regard for any possible life within the womb.
Frankly, if one wants to be technical... a biblical position would be that a woman's body and the fruit of her womb are strictly the prerogative of the husband. Keep in mind, the ability to protect the family's inheritance through birthright was prominent. According to the Law of Moses... those conceived as a result of sin don't appear to have an intrinsic right to live.
The libertarian position doesn't advocate for the paternal authority of the husband over his wife's body and the fruit of the womb. However, it extends that authority to individual women themselves. Challenging them to choose wisely. There are many circumstances wherein the authority for making life or death decisions are granted to individual persons. The prevailing opinion is that the complexity of pregnancy as it relates to a woman's personal sovereignty over her person warrants that a woman be granted this authority. The church should advocate for choosing life and do all that it can to empower women who do choose life by addressing the issues they face. The church should also teach against using abortion as birth control and demonstrate mercy and understanding towards those faced with the choice of abortion with regards to rape, incest, or to preserve the life and/or health of the mother. Modern Judaism approaches the subject from this point of view also.
We need to train these kids coming about about the consequences of promiscuity. Not only are things like STDs a reality of loose living, so is having a kid you might not want or be ready for. Guess what kids? If you have sex, a baby could result from that. Kids are taught to do whatever they want sexually. Its ok. Its not! Abortion should not be allowed to be used as a form of birth control unless you were raped or giving birth to a baby will kill you. Growing up I never had a serious sex talk with my parents. My whole sex talk was over the pulpit. Fornicators go to hell! Thats all I heard. That needs to be taught. But to me thats just one side. That wasnt enough to keep me pure. You need to teach kids scripture. You also need to teach kids the physical realities of their sin. Show them pictures of people with STDs. It will put the fear of sin in them. Have them talk to people who were single mothers. Let them let tell them how hard they had it. Parents need to be parents. Abortion should not be another form of birth control. The holy spirit+parenting+abstinence is the best form of birth control
We need to train these kids coming about about the consequences of promiscuity. Not only are things like STDs a reality of loose living, so is having a kid you might not want or be ready for. Guess what kids? If you have sex, a baby could result from that. Kids are taught to do whatever they want sexually. Its ok. Its not! Abortion should not be allowed to be used as a form of birth control unless you were raped or giving birth to a baby will kill you. Growing up I never had a serious sex talk with my parents. My whole sex talk was over the pulpit. Fornicators go to hell! Thats all I heard. That needs to be taught. But to me thats just one side. That wasnt enough to keep me pure. You need to teach kids scripture. You also need to teach kids the physical realities of their sin. Show them pictures of people with STDs. It will put the fear of sin in them. Have them talk to people who were single mothers. Let them let tell them how hard they had it. Parents need to be parents. Abortion should not be another form of birth control. The holy spirit+parenting+abstinence is the best form of birth control
My wife and I didn't have children until after 30. And we were high school sweethearts. Our parents taught us well about the risks involved with intercourse. We were married 9 years before we felt we were ready for a child.
The waters caused "the curse" (menses), and the womb was to swell and the "thigh" (Hebrew euphemism) was to rot. This process was clearly to designed to render an adulterous woman barren... and to destroy anything living within her womb that didn't belong to her husband. This trial was implemented upon the husband's request.
In addition... the execution of adulteresses caught in the act never facilitated a waiting period wherein pregnancy could be determined. Adulteresses and fornicators were often stoned outside the camp immediately upon discovery. There was absolutely no regard for any life abiding within the womb. Nor measures to protect it.
Let's get biblical...
The Bible advocates for the value of human life. However, the extent and manner in which the Bible values life doesn't entirely jive with the radical notions of the modern Pro-Life Movement (essentially what has become strictly a Republican view point). In the Bible...
-A miscarriage resulting from negligence was handled as though it were the loss of property.
-Women suspected of adultery were presented with a trial by ordeal. If guilty, they were rendered barren and anything growing within the womb was destroyed. If innocent, the water that causes "the curse" (menses) didn't damage the womb.
-Women caught in the very act of adultery (or fornication) were often executed immediately upon discovery. There was no legal concern or regard for any possible life within the womb.
Frankly, if one wants to be technical... a biblical position would be that a woman's body and the fruit of her womb are strictly the prerogative of the husband. Keep in mind, the ability to protect the family's inheritance through birthright was prominent. According to the Law of Moses... those conceived as a result of sin don't appear to have an intrinsic right to live.
The libertarian position doesn't advocate for the paternal authority of the husband over his wife's body and the fruit of the womb. However, it extends that authority to individual women themselves. Challenging them to choose wisely. There are many circumstances wherein the authority for making life or death decisions are granted to individual persons. The prevailing opinion is that the complexity of pregnancy as it relates to a woman's personal sovereignty over her person warrants that a woman be granted this authority. The church should advocate for choosing life and do all that it can to empower women who do choose life by addressing the issues they face. The church should also teach against using abortion as birth control and demonstrate mercy and understanding towards those faced with the choice of abortion with regards to rape, incest, or to preserve the life and/or health of the mother. Modern Judaism approaches the subject from this point of view also.
As I have already stated you are reading into scripture to say that what is described Numbers 5 in any way even implies that abortion is ok in the instance of adultery. What is spoken of there is a punishment of sin. I agree that it did result in barrenness but no where does it ever even hint at the death of a child.
As to the death of an unborn child and how it was dealt with in the bible shows a high value of human life perhaps even higher than ours today rather than a lesser veiw.
11 Then ye shall appoint you cities to be cities of refuge for you; that the slayer may flee thither, which killeth any person at unawares.
12 And they shall be unto you cities for refuge from the avenger; that the manslayer die not, until he stand before the congregation in judgment.
13 And of these cities which ye shall give six cities shall ye have for refuge.
14 Ye shall give three cities on this side Jordan, and three cities shall ye give in the land of Canaan, which shall be cities of refuge.
15 These six cities shall be a refuge, both for the children of Israel, and for the stranger, and for the sojourner among them: that every one that killeth any person unawares may flee thither.
16 And if he smite him with an instrument of iron, so that he die, he is a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death.
17 And if he smite him with throwing a stone, wherewith he may die, and he die, he is a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death.
18 Or if he smite him with an hand weapon of wood, wherewith he may die, and he die, he is a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death.
19 The revenger of blood himself shall slay the murderer: when he meeteth him, he shall slay him.
20 But if he thrust him of hatred, or hurl at him by laying of wait, that he die;
21 Or in enmity smite him with his hand, that he die: he that smote him shall surely be put to death; for he is a murderer: the revenger of blood shall slay the murderer, when he meeteth him.
22 But if he thrust him suddenly without enmity, or have cast upon him any thing without laying of wait,
23 Or with any stone, wherewith a man may die, seeing him not, and cast it upon him, that he die, and was not his enemy, neither sought his harm:
24 Then the congregation shall judge between the slayer and the revenger of blood according to these judgments:
Notice that if a man were to kill a person by accident they were not required to pay anything to anyone rather they were instructed to flee to a city of refuge and there they were safe from any recourse. However notice the way that a person is dealt with when they accidently kill an unborn child while striving with someone else.
Exodus 21:22-25
22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe
Notice that even though the killing was by mistake God does not allow this person to flee to a city of refuge rather God demands punishment. Therefore it would seem that God holds the accidental killing of an unborn child as a greater crime than the accidental killing of an adult.
If God holds the accidental killing of a baby so seriously how seriously does He view the purposeful murder of an unborn baby?
First, I know people who can eat almost a ton of anything and they don't gain weight. Yet, I know people who gain 5 lbs. by just looking at a chocolate cake. Metabolism is really important.
But... I do get your point.
You believe that a woman forfeits the sovereignty of her person to the government upon having sexual relations.
unprotected dangerous sex when she knows she can get pregnant, and also knows she really cannot afford to BE pregnant....
Protect the innocent remains the main job of any civilized people.
NOT protecting the innocent led God to distroy more than one nation in the OT.
protect the innocent. nonsense about sovereignty is just that. Nonsense.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
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