left upci yr ago and still messed up

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by NorCal

I, like you have had issues in the past. But what one must realize is this "Is it worth doing something that I enjoy worth more then the splintering of the branch?" To me, I say no.

As Christians, we must realize that the benefits of this work are only temporary. Meaning, missing sports, clothing, style, etc is not worth missing the benefits of reaching heaven. If there is one thing that I learned is that the cross is sometime to hard for "Christians" to bare.

I think people look at the UPCI as a huge legalistic system, and trust me, some of them can be. But let me tell you, if there is something that you can not give up in this world for the benefits of the next, then you are looking at it in the wrong perspective. You are the one looking at it in a legalistic way, and not in a matter of the heart way.

I am not one that says you have to be Amish/Mennonite to obtain salvation and separation from the world. But, you do need to follow the spirit, and the spirit of the man that God has placed you under (not at a slave or subordinate, but out of respect to the Elder).

If there is one thing that I have learned, is that my relationship with God is between Him and I; relationships with anyone else really does not matter.

I think you kind of contradicted yourself here. In the first paragraph, you state that personal fulfillment is not worth splintering the branch, or affecting others, as I interpret it. Maybe I read it incorrectly.

Unfortunately, I find that many folks who really want to leave an organized religious structure but stay, stay not because they feel God wants them there, but stay out of peer pressure. Trying to please others. Not wanting to upset the apple cart.

That's absolutely the wrong reason to stay. If God directs you to stay - stay. But, don't do it to please others.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

If God directs you to stay - stay. But, don't do it to please others.

[Jay]

Originally Posted by Nitehawk013

It's not as if you are forced to give anything up to begin with. Pastors and such are not police. If you cut your hair or wear jeans (women) the "holiness police" don't come and arrest you. No one is hiding in your bushes trying to catch you drinking a beer or watching a movie.

Unless you go to a really really strict and overzealous church, the scenario is pretty much the same. The Pastor preaches his version of holiness for that church and you choose whether to follow it or not. If you don't, you simply won't be holding a position that involves teaching or preaching (or leading in praise sinigng likely). UNless you are attending Epleys church (just teasing sir) you probably arent being told you are going straight to hell for wearing pants or cutting your hair. Your Pastor probably isn't calling you out and embarrassing you in public.

This whole thing get sblown out of proportion MORE by the LIB crowd than the conservatives. I know a number of Pastors who are conservative, yet if you choose to not follow the standards as they teach them you aren't run off or condemned to eternal hell. You simply can't hold a teaching or platform position in the church. The LIB side acts like those who preach standards are out spying on their saints just hoping for a "gotcha" moment to pounce on them and rebuke. It isn't that way and likely hasn't been for 30+ years.

Legalism isn't asking people to have some distinction from the rest of the world that by and large dresses immodestly and carries itself with no class. Legalism is just a buzzword for anything that dares challenge people to be better than the lowest common denominator around them. McDonalds is more legalistic than any church. They will not even employ you inf you refuse to wear their uniform. No church that I have EVER heard of will tell people they cannot attend a service if they refuse to dress like the rest of the church.

I have agreed with both of your posts.

I was raised in a home that was conservative. We were raised in a very conservative district, went to a fairly conservative church. I never was afraid that the pastor was driving around spying on everyone in the church. I could also generally tell you who was or was not living what he preached.

I have heard my father say many times that he is not God's policeman who is going to be looking to catch people not living what he preaches. If he discovers that a person is not living right, then he will take appropriate measures, but he does not go looking to see if everyone is lining up all the time.

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by Jay

I have agreed with both of your posts.

I was raised in a home that was conservative. We were raised in a very conservative district, went to a fairly conservative church. I never was afraid that the pastor was driving around spying on everyone in the church. I could also generally tell you who was or was not living what he preached.

I have heard my father say many times that he is not God's policeman who is going to be looking to catch people not living what he preaches. If he discovers that a person is not living right, then he will take appropriate measures, but he does not go looking to see if everyone is lining up all the time.

You guys can claim this all you want, but you know as well as I do, if you belong to a UPC or other "holiness" church, and let's say your a woman who walks in with her hair cut, and some jewelry and makeup on, you WILL be treated differently. Most likely like a pariah, or at the very least a backslider.

So, it's easy to say there are no "holiness police" out there, but there are....they are just undercover......like the holiness CIA

And, guess what? Before you jump down my throat, let me clarify....I'm not saying that's a bad thing. What makes Apostolic churches successful (at least in their own eyes) is uniformity. Everyone is dressing the same way, we can all tell who is "holy" and living "right", we have a platform standard that we measure you by so we'll know if you can sing in the choir, etc. (Ironically, on most of those checklists, you only find things relating to the outward appearance, but that's neither here nor there for this discussion).

So, my thought is - if you don't feel led to live by the standards the church has set forth, then you should leave. If you decide to stay, then you should honor the culture of the church and live by those standards. Don't cause confusion, don't cause dissension, and don't create chaos.

Just my two cents!

[Nitehawk013]

My church is "holiness" yet we have a LARGE number of women who do not live the standard as it is taught. Good grief, we have multiple women who wear jewelry and makeup to service every week who are on our greeter staff. Our choir has a number of women who clearly cut their hair or dye it.

They aren't made to feel likeless of a member. They are brought in adn made to feel like part of the church. Over time they will hopfully choose to live what is taught and preached. If they do not, they will still be part of the church.

I don't know where some of you have been that you have this idea that peopel are made to feel like outcasts for not living the standard, or what year you thinkit is. I understand that sort of thing ran rampant 30-40 years ago, but I've been in the church for nearly 20 years and have never seen or heard of it in my years around the church.

As to going where God leads, I agree. We should Go where God tells us. As to this thread though, apparently God stopped saying a word to the poster as soon as they left the church. If God spoke telling them to leave a church, then don't you think He would have continued to speak to them after they left considering just how hard and traumatic leaving a church can be?

Maybe God wasn't telling them to leave. Maybe they simply felt uncomfortable and bailed instead of telling their Pastor they didn't agree with standards, but still wanted to be in church.

We are not getting the whoel story b/c it is NOT adding up.

[RandyWayne]

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

You guys can claim this all you want, but you know as well as I do, if you belong to a UPC or other "holiness" church, and let's say your a woman who walks in with her hair cut, and some jewelry and makeup on, you WILL be treated differently. Most likely like a pariah, or at the very least a backslider.

So, it's easy to say there are no "holiness police" out there, but there are....they are just undercover......like the holiness CIA

And, guess what? Before you jump down my throat, let me clarify....I'm not saying that's a bad thing. What makes Apostolic churches successful (at least in their own eyes) is uniformity. Everyone is dressing the same way, we can all tell who is "holy" and living "right", we have a platform standard that we measure you by so we'll know if you can sing in the choir, etc. (Ironically, on most of those checklists, you only find things relating to the outward appearance, but that's neither here nor there for this discussion).

So, my thought is - if you don't feel led to live by the standards the church has set forth, then you should leave. If you decide to stay, then you should honor the culture of the church and live by those standards. Don't cause confusion, don't cause dissension, and don't create chaos.

Just my two cents!

To say that "Our church is ultra conservative and WE don't have any sort of 'holiness policy!'" is really no different than the leader of an extreme cult saying 'ANYONE can leave. We don't have a lock on our front door!'. Both may be technically correct statements but they are also very very wrong.

I attended a very conservative church during the 80's and the pastor never came over to search through our closets or dresser drawers but boy of boy, if you ever did anything that was known to be against church teaching you WOULD hear about it from the pulpit along with a story or three of someone who disobeyed the pastor and either died or felt the Holy Ghost leave them, or usually both.

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by Nitehawk013

My church is "holiness" yet we have a LARGE number of women who do not live the standard as it is taught. Good grief, we have multiple women who wear jewelry and makeup to service every week who are on our greeter staff. Our choir has a number of women who clearly cut their hair or dye it.

They aren't made to feel likeless of a member. They are brought in adn made to feel like part of the church. Over time they will hopfully choose to live what is taught and preached. If they do not, they will still be part of the church.

I don't know where some of you have been that you have this idea that peopel are made to feel like outcasts for not living the standard, or what year you thinkit is. I understand that sort of thing ran rampant 30-40 years ago, but I've been in the church for nearly 20 years and have never seen or heard of it in my years around the church.

As to going where God leads, I agree. We should Go where God tells us. As to this thread though, apparently God stopped saying a word to the poster as soon as they left the church. If God spoke telling them to leave a church, then don't you think He would have continued to speak to them after they left considering just how hard and traumatic leaving a church can be?

Maybe God wasn't telling them to leave. Maybe they simply felt uncomfortable and bailed instead of telling their Pastor they didn't agree with standards, but still wanted to be in church.

We are not getting the whoel story b/c it is NOT adding up.

I just want to clarify - people who are just coming in to the church and don't adhere to the standard are treated MUCH differently than those who DID adhere to the standard and then stopped.

In my experience, that is.

[RandyWayne]

Originally Posted by Nitehawk013

My church is "holiness" yet we have a LARGE number of women who do not live the standard as it is taught. Good grief, we have multiple women who wear jewelry and makeup to service every week who are on our greeter staff. Our choir has a number of women who clearly cut their hair or dye it.

They aren't made to feel likeless of a member. They are brought in adn made to feel like part of the church. Over time they will hopfully choose to live what is taught and preached. If they do not, they will still be part of the church.

I don't know where some of you have been that you have this idea that peopel are made to feel like outcasts for not living the standard, or what year you thinkit is. I understand that sort of thing ran rampant 30-40 years ago, but I've been in the church for nearly 20 years and have never seen or heard of it in my years around the church.

As to going where God leads, I agree. We should Go where God tells us. As to this thread though, apparently God stopped saying a word to the poster as soon as they left the church. If God spoke telling them to leave a church, then don't you think He would have continued to speak to them after they left considering just how hard and traumatic leaving a church can be?

Maybe God wasn't telling them to leave. Maybe they simply felt uncomfortable and bailed instead of telling their Pastor they didn't agree with standards, but still wanted to be in church.

We are not getting the whoel story b/c it is NOT adding up.

Your church is NOT the norm. Not even close.

[AreYouReady?]

Originally Posted by Nitehawk013

My church is "holiness" yet we have a LARGE number of women who do not live the standard as it is taught. Good grief, we have multiple women who wear jewelry and makeup to service every week who are on our greeter staff. Our choir has a number of women who clearly cut their hair or dye it.

They aren't made to feel likeless of a member. They are brought in adn made to feel like part of the church. Over time they will hopfully choose to live what is taught and preached. If they do not, they will still be part of the church.

I don't know where some of you have been that you have this idea that peopel are made to feel like outcasts for not living the standard, or what year you thinkit is. I understand that sort of thing ran rampant 30-40 years ago, but I've been in the church for nearly 20 years and have never seen or heard of it in my years around the church.

As to going where God leads, I agree. We should Go where God tells us. As to this thread though, apparently God stopped saying a word to the poster as soon as they left the church. If God spoke telling them to leave a church, then don't you think He would have continued to speak to them after they left considering just how hard and traumatic leaving a church can be?

Maybe God wasn't telling them to leave. Maybe they simply felt uncomfortable and bailed instead of telling their Pastor they didn't agree with standards, but still wanted to be in church.

We are not getting the whoel story b/c it is NOT adding up.

Apparently, you have not been in many parts of the country where OP UPC still ostracizes people, mainly women, for not upholding UPC stated standards.

You attend a modern church. I am happy for you.

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

Apparently, you have not been in many parts of the country where OP UPC still ostracizes people, mainly women, for not upholding UPC stated standards.

You attend a modern church. I am happy for you.