AFF Owner: Apostolic Identity Rooted in Racism?

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by DAII

Abandon it because ...
*cricket, cricket*

Well DA, Hoovie said we had to abandon it, so could you get in touch with me asap so we can discuss new names for the forum?

Really, my disposition here is to not take any of this too seriously although I was just a shade miffed at Hoovie saying that we didn't put any thought into the name of the forum and saying that we now have a place we can post with no restrictions. The recent limitations on you here at AFF have ZILCH to do with the start of AI and I can say that with my hand on a really tall stack of bibles.

Look, let's not pretend the obvious isn't true, the AFF leadership aren't members of the DA Fan Club, and although I'm many levels below you in stirring up trouble, they're not banging down my door, either, asking for autographs. I'm burned a few bridges.

But as for me, I'm really excited about the focus of AI (The forum) and I think we've got a really good chance to develop a place of productive, spirited, and respectful discussion, and for now I'm gonna stay focused on that.

[DAII]

Originally Posted by notofworks

Well DA, Hoovie said we had to abandon it, so could you get in touch with me asap so we can discuss new names for the forum?

Really, my disposition here is to not take any of this too seriously although I was just a shade miffed at Hoovie saying that we didn't put any thought into the name of the forum and saying that we now have a place we can post with no restrictions. The recent limitations on you here at AFF have ZILCH to do with the start of AI and I can say that with my hand on a really tall stack of bibles.

Look, let's not pretend the obvious isn't true, the AFF leadership aren't members of the DA Fan Club, and although I'm many levels below you in stirring up trouble, they're not banging down my door, either, asking for autographs. I'm burned a few bridges.

But as for me, I'm really excited about the focus of AI (The forum) and I think we've got a really good chance to develop a place of productive, spirited, and respectful discussion, and for now I'm gonna stay focused on that.

Your focus is on target, bro. And is my goal as well.

Hoovie, may not know the histrionics behind our starting AI - our talks in the summer, or in October, or purchasing the Xenforo software in early Nov when it was in its beta stages - but I won't digress. Or my purchase of the domain 2-3 years ago or our talks about the name.

I must also accept the owners' reprimand when I've been told I have promoted unwholesome and an immoral lifestyle as a reason for my quarantine by asking a question ... but I will not lie down when the public aspersion is made that we, along with the UPCI, foolishly sought to redefine a term somehow originally rooted in racial bigotry and injustice.

Yes, this is about public perception and whether such innuendo is rooted in any truth.

It's as if DKB and us have adapted unbeknowingly the Confederate flag as our logo.

Something D4T would celebrate but who has been more vocal about social injustice on this forum than you or I? Maybe Light and Jermyn?

Yes. It's offensive.

[Hoovie]

DA your "examples" are ludicrous. I did not assert the word "Identity" nor term "Apostolic Identity" was never used in positive light in the 1990s, just that it was not the popular buzzword like today. I seriously doubt folks were branding their distinctive as "identity" anything in the years following Timothy McViegh.

Furthermore, I have not pretended to present anything scientific at all. Just informing that my family and friends were negatively impacted by the Identity movement and a UPC pastor had actually promoted "Apostolic Identity" as a preferred term to present Acts 2:38 and Identity.


BTW now is a good time to remove the "lie" accusation from your previous post.

[DAII]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

DA your "examples" are ludicrous. I did not assert the word "Identity" nor term "Apostolic Identity" was never used in positive light in the 1990s, just that it was not the popular buzzword like today. I seriously doubt folks were branding their distinctive as "identity" anything in the years following Timothy McViegh.

Furthermore, I have not pretended to present anything scientific at all. Just informing that my family and friends were negatively impacted by the Identity movement and a UPC pastor had actually promoted "Apostolic Identity" as a preferred term to present Acts 2:38 and Identity.


BTW now is a good time to remove the "lie" accusation from your previous post.

You most definitely spoke of the term having a negative and an accepted "infamous meaning" prior to this last decade. And would not be used or have happened in the 1990's.

Your freshly baked anecdotes of a negative AI connotation "15 years ago" ... revealed last night after we've spoken about the recent AI campaign for years ad nauseum. ... And actual concurrent evidence of the term being used semantically in a similar vein then as it is today ... seem to be disingenuous in light of your own words:

"I am just surprised the "Apostolic Identity" term gained mainstream acceptance among national Apostolic speakers and writers in the last few years - in spite of it's infamous meaning. I dare say this would not have happened in the 90's "

It's a falsehood - it was used without reservation on Apostolic forums of the day. It needed not to gain "acceptance" if what you really meant to say that some isolated pocket has bad karma about the terminology.

You're attempting to poison the well and no one bought it.

[Hoovie]

DA, what was it that would not have happened in the 90's? Mainstream acceptance as campaign and buzzword. I did not say they would not have ever used the word - of course they did.

Poisoning the well? Why on Earth do you...

Suppose that was true and I wanted to inject poison where Apostolic Identity is being promoted. You and your blog/forum represent maybe half of one percent of this block. The vast majority of the block is represented by people I know, love, break bread with, and worship with. How would this "poisoning" be of any value to me whatsoever?

Ridiculous.

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by DAII

You're focus is on target, bro. And is my goal as well.

Hoovie, may not know the histrionics behind our starting AI - our talks in the summer, or in October, or purchasing the Xenforo software in early Nov when it was in its beta stages - but I won't digress. Or my purchase of the domain 2-3 years ago or our talks about the name.

I must also accept the owners' reprimand when I've been told I have promoted unwholesome and an immoral lifestyle as a reason for my quarantine by asking a question ... but I will not lie down when the public aspersion is made that we, along with the UPCI, foolishly sought to redefine a term somehow originally rooted in racial bigotry and injustice.

Yes, this is about public perception and whether such innuendo is rooted in any truth.

It's as if DKB and us have adapted the unbeknowingly the Confederate flag as our logo.

Something D4T would celebrate but who has been more vocal about social injustice than you or I? Maybe Light and Jermyn?

The answer to that last question, in my time here, would be, "No one." There's even a large portion of our church website that deals with racism and speaking out for social justice is one of my greatest passions. "Black Like Me" by John Howard Griffin changed my life and I once had a major portion of "I Have A Dream" memorized, and I still cry every time I hear it, and I cried when Barak Obama took the presidential oath of office.

I also know it's one of your hottest hot buttons, so I'm not terribly worried about having the racism tag pinned to our coats.

But like I said, while the timing of the post is a head-scratcher, I'm not terribly worried about it. But any thought that AI was started so that you or I or anyone else can be unbridled, just isn't accurate and time will prove that. As well, any thought that this is a development of the last few weeks is way off-the-mark. I emailed you and Baron last summer asking if you all would be interested in pursuing something (not AI, something else but similar...don't want anyone to think I'm taking the credit for AI) but also expressing that it's not my gift or passion to start a new forum but I'd like to be involved if you ever wanted to. I still have the emails. And you started a conversation by email with Baron, myself and one other person, in early October, I believe, and that's when the AI idea started. And you've been tossing around the idea for much longer, well before I even knew AFF existed.

One last thing....for anyone who cares....DA could have started a forum on his own, been completely unaccountable, unbridled, and done anything he wanted. But he didn't do that. Instead, he gathered up a few people, and together a direction was discussed and opinions were sought. Each has an equal voice, an equal vote with majority ruling in decision-making, and no one individual forges ahead with anything unless information is shared....and this is true even though DA has done a massive majority of the technical and constructive work. So any insinuations that DA is tired of AFF restrictions and is doing AI so he can irresponsibly yell with no accountability, are just plain wrong.

[DAII]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

DA, what was it that would not have happened in the 90's? Mainstream acceptance as campaign and buzzword. I did not say they would not have ever used the word - of course they did.

Poisoning the well? Why on Earth do you...

Suppose that was true and I wanted to inject poison where Apostolic Identity is being promoted. You and your blog/forum represent maybe half of one percent of this block. The vast majority of the block is represented by people I know, love, break bread with, and worship with. How would this "poisoning" be of any value to me whatsoever?

Ridiculous.

You can squirm and redirect all night Hoovie. Bottom line is you questioned the acceptance of this buzzword or campaign by national leaders "IN SPITE OF IT'S INFAMOUS MEANING" (your contrast, not mine)

With the implication that such acceptance would not have taken place a decade prior because of this cryptic, regional and isolated "infamous meaning"

Your Neilsen ratings and extent of fellowship need not apply.

[DAII]

Because I respect his ability to reason and objectivity -

JG's response and understanding of the " infamous meaning" quote:

Why? "Apostolic Identity" did not hold a nation wide stigma in the 90s

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by DAII

Because I respect his ability to reason and objectivity -

JG's response and understanding of the " infamous meaning" quote:

That's nice, but I was not writing a legal document. This is a discussion forum. I don't recall hearing the AI term at all until a few years ago except in the fore mentioned instances with nod to the Christian Identity movement.

[DAII]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

That's nice, but I was not writing a legal document. This is a discussion forum. I don't recall hearing the AI term at all until a few years ago except in the fore mentioned instances with nod to the Christian Identity movement.

Well that settles it. Thank you for bringing it to the attention of the national leadership of the UPCi, DKB, the entire constituency, greater Apostolica, mine, NOW's, Baron, James, Praxeas, AQP, Cindy, Aegsm, Bratt and the entire forum.

We owe a debt of gratitude for making us dumber and more racist.

Gnite SH.