---> DENVER STANFORD - "I am a Soul Winner" - Page 4

Cindy · #31 11-15-2010, 11:22 AM

John 12:32

How is He lifted up?

Mr. Smith · #32 11-15-2010, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Socialite

Why the sighs and moans over here? Just chime in and discuss.

See my previous post in response to your "I guess it's either we are 'soul winners' or nothing."

Like I said....no one cares. It's true, huh? Just force-feed me sermons using the bible completely out of context, make me feel better, give me the illusion that it matters, and we'll be happy.

Socialite · #33 11-15-2010, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cindy

John 12:32

How is He lifted up?

Actually, read this verse outside of the KJV, Cindy. I think that will be helpful. Jesus is saying "when" he is lifted up from the earth, he will bring people to Him. This is a literal statement using figurative language. He is not lifted up by "praise and worship," at least in this context (though I've used that expression ad nauseam). There are other ways we can show that praise and worship "lift him up" or "magnify" or "exalt" him.

Socialite · #34 11-15-2010, 11:34 AM

Cindy,

And I,(AV) when I am lifted up from the earth,(AW) will draw(AX) all people to myself." 33He said this(AY) to show by what kind of death he was going to die. 34So the crowd answered him, "We have heard from the Law that(AZ) the Christ remains forever. How can you say that(BA) the Son of Man must be lifted up? Who is this Son of Man?" 35So Jesus said to them, (BB) "The light is among you(BC) for a little while longer.(BD) Walk while you have the light, lest darkness(BE) overtake you.(BF) The one who walks in the darkness does not know where he is going. 36While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become(BG) sons of light."

Lifted up here is a description of his position on the cross... yes, no?

Mr. Smith · #35 11-15-2010, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Socialite

Actually, read this verse outside of the KJV, Cindy. I think that will be helpful. Jesus is saying "when" he is lifted up from the earth, he will bring people to Him. This is a literal statement using figurative language. He is not lifted up by "praise and worship," at least in this context (though I've used that expression ad nauseam). There are other ways we can show that praise and worship "lift him up" or "magnify" or "exalt" him.

It's an obvious reference to the Old Testament..."The serpent being lifted up in the wilderness." But I read something years ago that went into detail of a culture of the time....can't remember at the moment....that supposedly Jesus was referring to.

But there were certain people that would come to the king with a grievance and desire an audience with him. There was an understanding that the petitioner would more likely gain an audience with the king if he acknowledged the king's authority and "Lifted him up", as in, put in his proper place of rulership. Supposedly, Jesus was saying, "If I be lifted up...if I am put in the place of priority, if your will is set aside and mine is sought....I will draw all men unto me."

I preached a big ole sermon on that 20 years ago. Got the crowd worked up, but maybe I should go look for my notes and do the research again.

Cindy · #36 11-15-2010, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Socialite

Cindy,

And I,(AV) when I am lifted up from the earth,(AW) will draw(AX) all people to myself." 33He said this(AY) to show by what kind of death he was going to die. 34So the crowd answered him, "We have heard from the Law that(AZ) the Christ remains forever. How can you say that(BA) the Son of Man must be lifted up? Who is this Son of Man?" 35So Jesus said to them, (BB) "The light is among you(BC) for a little while longer.(BD) Walk while you have the light, lest darkness(BE) overtake you.(BF) The one who walks in the darkness does not know where he is going. 36While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become(BG) sons of light."

Lifted up here is a description of his position on the cross... yes, no?

Yes, that is my point. Jesus is the soul winner. We are His witnesses. But I also understand the view point of those that use the term. Right or wrong. As in: I witnessed to someone and Jesus saved them. So that soul is won to Christ.

Socialite · #37 11-15-2010, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cindy

Yes, that is my point. Jesus is the soul winner. We are His witnesses. But I also understand the view point of those that use the term. Right or wrong. As in: I witnessed to someone and Jesus saved them. So that soul is won to Christ.

I didn't realize you were taking that angle.

The verse is not a "soul-winning" verse, still. In fact, the term "winning souls" is not even found in the NT.

But you are right in what you said at the end there. Reminds me of Paul: I planted, Apollos watered, God gives the increase."

Socialite · #38 11-15-2010, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Smith

It's an obvious reference to the Old Testament..."The serpent being lifted up in the wilderness." But I read something years ago that went into detail of a culture of the time....can't remember at the moment....that supposedly Jesus was referring to.

But there were certain people that would come to the king with a grievance and desire an audience with him. There was an understanding that the petitioner would more likely gain an audience with the king if he acknowledged the king's authority and "Lifted him up", as in, put in his proper place of rulership. Supposedly, Jesus was saying, "If I be lifted up...if I am put in the place of priority, if your will is set aside and mine is sought....I will draw all men unto me."

I preached a big ole sermon on that 20 years ago. Got the crowd worked up, but maybe I should go look for my notes and do the research again.

Interesting. Thanks for sharing.

Yeah, I think the reference to Moses and the serpent both point to his death, and the power of his death. Relationship is made whole by his death. The point of what he's saying in the Text is to show how he will die. On a stick, a tree, a cross.

Cindy · #39 11-15-2010, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Socialite

I didn't realize you were taking that angle.

The verse is not a "soul-winning" verse, still. In fact, the term "winning souls" is not even found in the NT.

But you are right in what you said at the end there. Reminds me of Paul: I planted, Apollos watered, God gives the increase."

Yeah, the same way I couldn't understand it going another direction. I thought it was just as plain to everyone else.

Socialite · #40 11-15-2010, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cindy

Yeah, the same way I couldn't understand it going another direction. I thought it was just as plain to everyone else.

Still not getting what you're saying. What's "plain?" The verse in Proverbs has nothing to do with evangelism. The term "soul winning" is not a New Testament phrase, and has nothing to do with soul winning, yet it's used by many groups to infer that it does.

The "lifted up" text: has nothing to with soul winning. Has to do with Jesus' death, and if anything, the power of the cross.

Please explain what is "plain."