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  #31  
Old 11-05-2010, 06:49 AM
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Apocrypha Apocrypha is offline
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Re: Tithing is a consecration, not a commandment

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Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
What would happen if we took our tithe and placed it in a second account and used that account to individually help others regularly?
I am setting it up in the by-laws of the new church plant that we must give 10% of our gross to other ministries. I think tithing is a great consecration, its just not mandatory.
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  #32  
Old 11-05-2010, 06:55 AM
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Re: Tithing is a consecration, not a commandment

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Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
What would happen if we took our tithe and placed it in a second account and used that account to individually help others regularly?
this was something i was doing, though i didnt put it into a account, i kept it on me. But same princible. To help others in need
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  #33  
Old 11-05-2010, 07:08 AM
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Re: Tithing is a consecration, not a commandment

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Originally Posted by Apocrypha View Post
I am setting it up in the by-laws of the new church plant that we must give 10% of our gross to other ministries. I think tithing is a great consecration, its just not mandatory.
you said its not mandatory, but then you use the words we must?

instead of other ministies, why dont you use it for the churches ministry.
provide blankets for the cold and clothes for winter. Food pantry for the starving. maybe build a small complex to offer shelter for a short time for the homeless.

Get the church involved with the community in these fashions. Have cook out at church and advertize it for whosoever will. Im not telling you how to do it, but i am giving you some great ideas i would love to see come about.

No doubt you get blessed for giving to the Lord, so why are you limiting it to only 10%?
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  #34  
Old 11-05-2010, 07:17 AM
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Apocrypha Apocrypha is offline
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Re: Tithing is a consecration, not a commandment

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Originally Posted by acerrak View Post
you said its not mandatory, but then you use the words we must?

instead of other ministies, why dont you use it for the churches ministry.
provide blankets for the cold and clothes for winter. Food pantry for the starving. maybe build a small complex to offer shelter for a short time for the homeless.

Get the church involved with the community in these fashions. Have cook out at church and advertize it for whosoever will. Im not telling you how to do it, but i am giving you some great ideas i would love to see come about.

No doubt you get blessed for giving to the Lord, so why are you limiting it to only 10%?
We will do tons of that stuff. But when you put something in the constitution/bylaws of a corporation you gotta do it.

We will do other benevolence projects also. But that 10% is to specifically help out other ministries like missionaries. Thats not to say the other 90% isnt also going to to good things.. its just a form of structured giving.
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  #35  
Old 11-05-2010, 10:21 AM
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A.W. Bowman A.W. Bowman is offline
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Re: Tithing is a consecration, not a commandment

Now, what does one do about supporting the ministry? Is that a biblical mandate? The simple answers are, do everything you can to support the ministry and yes, it is a biblical mandate. Please review all of 1 Corinthians 9.

While Paul was ministering among the churches, he seldom revived any direct support for his work, and when he was in prison he received financial support and also personal, moral support. The fact that he was not always taking handouts from the congregations was because he thought to take responsibility for supporting himself and those who were part of his ministry team. A noble position. It is important, however, to note that Paul never solicited a tithe from anyone – at any time. As I noted earlier, because doing so would have violated God’s Law. Paul was from the tribe of Benjamin, not of Levi.

Does this apply to Gentiles? In a way, yes. Gentiles are grafted into the seed of Abraham (Romans 11) and adopted into the tribe of Judah (Galatians 4:5), remembering that Jesus is now our brother and He carries the title, The Lion of the Tribe of Judah. Yet, all of this is another bible study. Yet, as you can see, Jesus was also prohibited from asking for or receiving a tithe. Further, if God in the flesh was not authorized to take a tithe to support His ministry (to violate His own Law would be a transgression of the Law and would be counted as sin), how much more would it be for one of us today?

So, from what stand point are we to support ‘the ministry’? If our teachers had studied 1 Corinthians 9 carefully, it would not be a question for examination.

If there is any contention concerning the support of those whose calling it is to preach the gospel, let him read these passages and be instructed. Even so, the Church of Rome c 350 AD instituted a tithing system unknown to the Jews, or by God, in order to support its own established priesthood and building programs. This act not only provided for the support of Rome’s priests, it also placed the saints in bondage to them. Today, in many churches one cannot (is not allowed) to exercise their God given gifting and calling within the congregation unless and until that saint continues to pay a spiritual tribute (a carnal bribe) to the senior priest (pastor).

The real question is, who among ‘the ministry’ is authorized to receive congregational support? Sometimes what is not included in scripture is as important as what is included.

Please consider the entire works of the new Covenant writings. There is no indication that anyone elevated to a leadership position within a local assembly was authorized to quite work, retire, and live off the saints of that assembly. Also see 2 Thessalonians 3. Now, here is where it gets sticky.

Those who are identified as worthy of support are those who preach the gospel – and travel in meeting the requirements of their calling, not those who live and work locally. The apostles (the sent out ones) and evangelists, and as may be required, prophets will require support because they generally do not have the means of plying a trade or profession ‘on the road’ to support themselves. Is it only the fact that these individuals travel that makes them eligible for congregational support? By no means.

Question: Who is authorized to receive support? Those who preach the gospel – on the road. Who preaches the gospel? Apostles and evangelists, and to a lesser extent, prophets. But what about pastors and teachers? Should they go ‘on the road’ for a season, then they too are included. (Romans 10:13-18) But, while sharing the gospel is the responsibility of every saint, it is not their ‘calling’. Being a living epistle of Christ is (another Bible study). Local elders (that includes pastors) and teachers are not ‘called’ to preach the gospel, but like the saints, they are ‘called’ to share the reason for their hope (1 Peter 3:15). Surprised? They are, however, ‘called and ordained’ to edify, teach, guide, correct, and encourage the assembly of saints and to lead them into the spiritual maturity of their own callings and ministries.

The preaching of the gospel to those who have already heard it, responded to it, and is practicing the requirements of it, is foolishness! It is like giving an aspirin to a patient for a headache – they recovered from, yesterday! Hearing the gospel is NOT what they need and require. It is guidance in biblical righteousness, learning how to live an over coming life of faith. Being taught the fundamentals of spiritual warfare, etc. That is, to move on from the milk of the word to the meat of the word. This we do not do! And in our failure, we keep the saints of God as children, never maturing and never growing up into their gifting and calling, rather, they remain dependent on the ‘man of God’. (Yes, who is the man of God is another Bible study), never realizing that it is they, who are the men and women of God that Paul is referring to. (See 1 Tim 3:16-17 as a starting point.)

Closing remarks.

Do the math.

A congregation consisting of 10 tithers making an average of $20,000 per year. That is a congregational income of $200,000 per year. Or, a tithe of $20,000 per year given to the pastor. If he is not working at a speculator job, that provides his with the same average income as the congregation.

If he should have 20 tithers making the same $20,000 per year, the tithe doubles and the pastor now receive $40,000 per year. Fifty tithers nets the pastor $100,000 per year income. That is five times more than the average church member – plus whatever he might make on the ‘outside’ job, while the congregation he is called to ‘serve’ continues to bring in their $20,000 per year – and who are also expected to pay their living expenses and taxes out of this sum (tithes are taxed differently than regular income), along with church upkeep, the mortgage (if any), utilities, etc. There is no biblical principle of any kind that supports this practice. This is a statement you can trust: Number do matter! ‘Sheep stealing’ almost becomes a capital offense among churches because we are talking about some real money resources here (not souls that belong to God alone).

Finally, this offering is just an over view of the subject, and should not be taken as the ‘final word’ (completed doctrine). While I do not recommend doing word searches using only English terms, in this case it might be helpful to at least start with words like tithe, tithed, tithes, and tithing, including the word, tenth. If available, use a good lexicon rather than a dictionary to get the meaning of the different usages. Lexicons will provide more information concerning a specific word and its usage in different verses than a dictionary will.

Another thing to keep in mind is that there are no ‘stand alone’ passages in the Bible. The Book is an integrated work. So, when you start pulling on verses to see what they say and mean, you will also be pulling in additional verses to study – sometimes addressing what seem to be a different subject altogether. But, continue to pull and to study, seek the connection and understanding.

Shalom Aleichem
Peace be Unto You

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Last edited by A.W. Bowman; 11-05-2010 at 10:27 AM.
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  #36  
Old 11-05-2010, 11:06 AM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: Tithing is a consecration, not a commandment

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Originally Posted by Apocrypha View Post
I am setting it up in the by-laws of the new church plant that we must give 10% of our gross to other ministries. I think tithing is a great consecration, its just not mandatory.
As long as it isn't manditory, I think that's a noble approach.

I had the idea that if I ever started a ministry (God forbid!) I'd simply receive financial support without any percentage or amount being manditory. However, I'd offer to allow those that give 10% or more to become "Covenant Partners" with the ministry. I believe there is a blessing in covenanting with the cause of God.
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  #37  
Old 11-05-2010, 11:47 AM
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Sam Sam is offline
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Re: Tithing is a consecration, not a commandment

Many years ago I was told by my pastor (ALJC) that he was considering me for a position of "pastor's assistant" and he clarified it by saying that it was not an "assistant pastor but pastor's assistant." I told him honestly, "Well, I don't always pay my tithes." He then backed off and said, "That's one of the first things considered when a person is given a position in this church. We check the records to see what their giving is." I never heard any more about that position. At that time I was licensed with the ALJC and was sectional youth leader for Ohio.
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  #38  
Old 11-05-2010, 12:18 PM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: Tithing is a consecration, not a commandment

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Originally Posted by Sam View Post
Many years ago I was told by my pastor (ALJC) that he was considering me for a position of "pastor's assistant" and he clarified it by saying that it was not an "assistant pastor but pastor's assistant." I told him honestly, "Well, I don't always pay my tithes." He then backed off and said, "That's one of the first things considered when a person is given a position in this church. We check the records to see what their giving is." I never heard any more about that position. At that time I was licensed with the ALJC and was sectional youth leader for Ohio.
Ouch.

Tithing almost ranks up there with Jesus name baptism. lol
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  #39  
Old 11-05-2010, 12:20 PM
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Re: Tithing is a consecration, not a commandment

I don't always attend the church I like. Partly because I know I'm really not welcome to participate to the fullest extent of my abilities because I don't tithe. When my wife left me my income was slashed in half... but my expenses are nearly the same. I just can't afford it. I was going to find a cheaper place to live... but I'm not getting a place in the ghetto where I fear that my son will be shot while playing in the yard, especially over a doctrinal "interpretation".
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  #40  
Old 11-05-2010, 02:31 PM
Sabby Sabby is offline
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Smile Re: Tithing is a consecration, not a commandment

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Originally Posted by HaShaliach View Post
Apocrypha provided a good overview of the 'biblical tithe'.

The tithing requirements are spelled out in great detail within the scriptures. The tithe, what constitutes the tithe, when, where and to whom it is to be presented, who was to give it and the manner of its presentation, for what purposes, etc., are all the requirements are spelled out. There are ten primary laws governing tithing (as identified by Maimonides) and a dozen or more 'minor' instructions.

Now, according to the Law and the biblical instructions identified above, only one group of people were authorized to receive the tithe of the land, i.e., the tribe of Levi - no one else, under any conditions!. And, not all members of the tribe of Levi could eat of the tithes. (Another Hebrew Bible study).

Under these conditions, not even Jesus nor any of the apostles could or would seek or accept a tithe from anyone, especially Gentiles. Neither Jesus or the apostles were Levites. Consequently, they would be breaking the Law if they so engaged. To give or receive tithes outside of the Old Covenant instructions is a direct transgression of the Law and the ordinances governing tithing. After the destruction of the Temple and the disbandment of the priesthood, tithing ceased to be paid or received, because there was no one left in an office authorized to receive tithes.

As a reminder, to transgress the Law is defined in the Bible as 'sin'. 1 John 3:4
Also, everyone is instructed not to diminish from or add to the articles of the Law. ( Deuteronomy 4:2 & 12:32)

Therefore, the only avenue open to a demand for tithes today, is to materially change, alter, and even rewrite the Laws of tithing so as to deliberately misrepresent, misinterpret and/or misapply scripture in order to force a false scriptural support for a now, well defined 'non-biblical requirement'.

There are a lot of technical reasons that can be presented to show that the biblical tithing no longer required, or even permitted according to scripture. But question is, if the scriptures declare the biblical tithing a void ordinance, why bother with all of the technical details? Unless, of course one is tempted to continue in the sin anyway and is looking for a loop hole.

For the $64.00 question.

Is non-biblical tithing a sin? The simple answer is, In and of itself, No. If it is required of you, or if you require it of others, yes.

If a person has purposed in their heart to give any amount (1%, 5% 10%, 90%, etc.) and it is with out compulsion (2 Corinthians 9:6-7), then give it with a glad heart! If one desires to give to the pastor's grocery fund, do so, but you do not own him/her 10% of all of your income, whatever source, for his retirement fund.Give to the church as God has prospered you and as you think appropriate,

Do not deprive your family of the necessities of life in order for the church building to have lights, or to provide the pastor and family to drive his and her's Caddies, while members of the congregation can't get their old Fords running. Priorities. Also see Matthew 23.

Next, what about those ministers who must depend on support from the churches for their ministry and even physical survival?

By tomorrow, at the latest.

Did you mean the $64,000 question or the $64.00?

Great insight.

When the giving in any local assembly becomes driven by guilt or command rather than willing gladness of heart it becomes less than what God has intended. We've developed over the years a westernized business model of the "church" that has to be financed in some way, the answer being "tithing".
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