??? Daniel chapter 7 "Oneness"??? - Page 4

Esther · #31 07-10-2010, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Esther, do you see the context shows "son of man" does not refer to Jesus?

Yes, OA did a wonderful job of explaining and showing scripture to back it up.

I think this will be clear to her as well.

Praxeas · #32 07-10-2010, 03:59 PM

BTW it does not say THE son of man but A son of man

Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him.

Esther · #33 07-10-2010, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Praxeas

BTW it does not say THE son of man but A son of man

Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him.

True.

mfblume · #34 07-10-2010, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pelathais

I agree Mike - in the basic outline. However, Esther's question was just about two "subjects" appearing at the throne. And I use the word "subject" in the grammatical sense - as in the subject of a sentence is a noun.

The fact that two subjects appeared doesn't necessarily mean that two distinct "beings" (or Beings) are in view.

Precisely.

mfblume · #35 07-10-2010, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Esther, this is a good example of taking a verse out of context. If you read the entire text Daniel asks for an interpretation, not being a Trinitarian he does not automatically understand this to be 2 Divine persons...

In the explanation Daniel is told that this depicts the saints of the most high God, not God the Son.

However, the Son of God is Jesus in this text and stands just in the same position as the Lamb in Rev 5. It is vicarious standing and obtaining of dominion. Both accounts show Christ's taking of something associated with dominion and the saints having the same provision. The reason the saints are mentioned is because Christ stood as High Priest in place of the saints.

Gordon Magee, in his famous debate with Toddy, tries to say this was not Jesus in Daniel 7. I strongly disagree. It is Jesus as much as Rev 5's Lamb is Jesus.

Sam · #36 07-10-2010, 07:02 PM

In Ephesians 2:15 and 16 the church is called "one new man" and "one body." That may be one of the reasons Bro. Norris taught that the one like a son of man in Daniel 7 was the church.

mfblume · #37 07-10-2010, 08:02 PM

Dan 7 and Rev 5 are parallel visions.

Daniel 7:13-14 KJV I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. (14) And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Revelation 5:6-7 KJV And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. (7) And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

When we read the interpretation of that aspect of Daniel quoted above we read the same thing we find after the account of Rev 5:6-7.

Daniel 7:18 KJV But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

Revelation 5:9-10 KJV And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; (10) And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

When anything in the Old Testament parallels something in the New, we will not see the details of the cross that the New will show, because the work of the cross was not known in the days of the Old Covenant. That is the reason the one like the son of man is not said to be a Lamb, since the concept of Lamb signifies sacrifice of Christ. It was not know in OT days how redemption would come about by the cross, but just that a new covenant would come. For this same reason we read the Lamb is as it had been slain and is seen standing. That is resurrection. Daniel did not see that detail.

But Daniel did see the vicarious work that John saw in Revelation. Daniel saw Jesus Christ take dominion as John saw the Lamb take the sealed book. And when Daniel was given an interpretation he was told the saints shall take dominion. John saw the same truth when he wrote the saints were made kings and priests although the Lamb took the book. Daniel said the son of man was given dominion and the saints therefore had dominion. This is the basic concept of VICARIOUS ATONEMENT.

Daniel and John both saw the true Holiest of Holies into which Christ as High Priest alone could enter. And as a result of that entrance, atonement was made and the Kingdom was provided for the saints.

So it is indeed Jesus in both Dan 7 and Rev 5 and the saints sharing that grasping of dominion since the High Priest stood for the rest of the people as mediator for that attainment in both prophecies of the same event. It all focuses on the work of the cross.

mfblume · #38 07-10-2010, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam

In Ephesians 2:15 and 16 the church is called "one new man" and "one body." That may be one of the reasons Bro. Norris taught that the one like a son of man in Daniel 7 was the church.

Amen... in the sense that the ONE BODY is the BODY OF CHRIST. When Christ is said to have obtained something, those IN HIM are said to have obtained it vicariously. He is the head and we are the body. I do not think it is saying Jesus is not literally in view here as though only the church members are considered one body like they were that son of man, though. That son of man is indeed Jesus, and the church Is His ONE BODY. The Body of Christ.

The words given to Daniel about the saints taking the dominion are saying that while CHRIST did it, the saints benefited from it as though they did it. Again, that is the whole concept of vicarious atonement.

mfblume · #39 07-10-2010, 08:11 PM

Back to the point, the reason people have trouble with Oneness in Dan 7 and Rev 5 is because they do not realize these visions are SYMBOLIC. God is omnipresent. If you could SEE God, you would see no further than the surface of your eyeballs. That is how we know that a vision of God sitting on a throne and Christ approaching Him is symbolic.

Praxeas · #40 07-10-2010, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

However, the Son of God is Jesus in this text and stands just in the same position as the Lamb in Rev 5. It is vicarious standing and obtaining of dominion. Both accounts show Christ's taking of something associated with dominion and the saints having the same provision. The reason the saints are mentioned is because Christ stood as High Priest in place of the saints.

Gordon Magee, in his famous debate with Toddy, tries to say this was not Jesus in Daniel 7. I strongly disagree. It is Jesus as much as Rev 5's Lamb is Jesus.

No Mike.First of all it does not say "the Son" it says "a son"

Second, as explained already, the text self interpreting and says this refers to the saints of the most high God

Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him.
Dan 7:14 And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed.

Now watch, the angel explains who receves this dominion

Dan 7:16 I approached one of those who stood there and asked him the truth concerning all this. So he told me and made known to me the interpretation of the things.
Dan 7:17 'These four great beasts are four kings who shall arise out of the earth.
Dan 7:18 But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, forever and ever.'

Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and the dominion and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High; their kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey them.'