Holy Ghost 101: Bernard, Godwin, Borat, Kinzie

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

...
Remember the guy that wrote, "They Spoke in Tongues"? He set out to disprove tongues and found out he was wrong. He never did receive the Holy Ghost, but he did find out his view was not correct.
...

I think you are referencing John Sherrill who wrote "They Speak With Other Tongues" which was copyrighted in 1964. He was skeptical but investigated the phenomena for an article on the subject which later turned out to be a book. He did receive the Holy Ghost Baptism in December 1960 while attending a FGBMFI meeting in Atlantic City.

It happened in room 405 of a hotel where he and others had gathered for some sandwiches, fellowship, worship and prayer. This is how he describes it on pages 155-160 of the book.

in 405 there was a certain air of expectancy. There were six of us now, seated in a casual circle about the room....

Partly in an effort to overcome self-consciousness, I shut my eyes. Soon I'd lost track of who was talking in the room. Someone began to pray in the Spirit. It was a woman's voice, but I did not know whose....

Now someone else began to pray in tongues. Another started to sing very softly in the Spirit. I felt my throat tighten... I suppose I was crying, deeply, silently...

There was a lull in the praying and singing. The voices around me receded into a quiet murmur.

"A man's voice: "I believe John wants the baptism in the Spirit."

I felt, more than saw, the five people rise and form a circle around me....

The group moved closer around me. It was almost as if they were forming with their bodies a funnel through which was concentrated the flow of the Spirit that was pulsating through the room. It flowed into me as I sat there, listening to the Spirit-song around me. Now the tongues swelled to a crescendo, musical and lovely. I opened my mouth, wondering if I too could join in, but nothing happened.

I felt a numbness in my lips and a constriction in my throat.

And suddenly I had the impression that in order to speak in tongues I had only to look up. But this was a joyful gesture. All my training and inclination was to approach God with head bowed.

Strange that such a simple gesture as lifting the head should become a battleground. And soon --perhaps because I did no obey quick enough-- another directive came clear: not only was I to lift my head but I was to lift my hands too, and I was to cry out with all the feeling in me a great shout of praise to God. A hot, angry flush rose and flooded me. It was the thing above all things that I didn't want to do.

Perhaps because it was so very repugnant to me, the issue was clearly drawn as one of sheer obedience.

What other possible significance could there be in my raising my hands high and mouthing some words of praise? But that was what I had to do, and I knew it. Foolish as it seemed. Or maybe because it seemed foolish. I heard E. Stanley Jones saying, "I had to become God's fool."

With a sudden burst of will I thrust my hands into the air, turned my face full upward, and at the top of my voice I shouted: "Praise the Lord!"

It was the floodgate opened. From deep inside me, deeper than I knew voice could go, came a torrent of joyful sound. It was not beautiful, like the tongues around me. I had the impression that it was ugly: explosive and grunting. I didn't care. It was healing, it was forgiveness, it was love too deep for words and it burst from me in wordless sound. After that one shattering effort of my will, my will was released, freed to soar into union with Him. No further conscious effort was required of me at all, not even choosing the syllables with which to express my joy. The syllables were all there, ready-formed for my use, more abundant than my earthbound lips and tongue could give shape to.

It was not that I felt out of control of the situation: I had never felt more truly masterful of myself, more integrated and at peace with warring factions inside myself. I could stop the languages at any instant, but who would? I wanted them to never stop. And so I prayed on, laughing and free, while the setting sun shone through the window and the stars came out.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Sam

I think you are referencing John Sherrill who wrote "They Speak With Other Tongues" which was copyrighted in 1964. He was skeptical but investigated the phenomena for an article on the subject which later turned out to be a book. He did receive the Holy Ghost Baptism in December 1960 while attending a FGBMFI meeting in Atlantic City.

It happened in room 405 of a hotel where he and others had gathered for some sandwiches, fellowship, worship and prayer. This is how he describes it on pages 155-160 of the book.

in 405 there was a certain air of expectancy. There were six of us now, seated in a casual circle about the room....

Partly in an effort to overcome self-consciousness, I shut my eyes. Soon I'd lost track of who was talking in the room. Someone began to pray in the Spirit. It was a woman's voice, but I did not know whose....

Now someone else began to pray in tongues. Another started to sing very softly in the Spirit. I felt my throat tighten... I suppose I was crying, deeply, silently...

There ws a lull in the praying and singing. The voices around me receded int a quiet murmur.

"A man's voice: "I believe John wants the baptism in the Spirit."

I felt, more than saw, the five people rise and form a circle around me....

The group moved closer around me. It was almost as if they were forming with their bodies a funnel through which was concentrated the flow of the Spirit that was pulsating through the room. It flowed into me as I sat there, listening to the Spirit-song around me. Now the tongues swelled to a crescendo, musical and lovely. I opened my mouth, wondering if I too could join in, but nothing happened.

I felt a numbness in my lips and a constriction in my throat.

And suddenly I had the impression that in order to speak in tongues I had only to look up. But this was a joyful gesture. All my training and inclination was to approach God with head bowed.

Strange that such a simple gesture as lifting the head should become a battleground.And soon --perhaps because I did no obey quick enough-- another directive came clear: not only was I to lift my head but I was to lift my hands too, and I was to cry out with all the feeling in me a great shout of praise to God. a hot, angry flush rose and flooded me. It was the thing above all things that I didn't want to do.

Perhaps because it was so very repugnant to me, the issue was clearly drawn as one or sheer obedience.

What other possible significance could there be in my raising my hands high and mouthing some words of praise? But that was what I had to do, and I knew it. Foolish as it seemed. Or maybe because it seemed foolish. I heard E. Stanley Jones saying, "I had to become God's fool."

With a sudden burst of will I thrust my hands into the air, turned my face full upward, and at the top of my voice I shouted: "Praise the Lord!"

It was the the floodgate opened. From deep inside me, deeper than I knew voice could go, came a torrent of joyful sound. It was not beautiful, like the tongues around me. I had the impression that it was ugly: explosive and grunting. I didn't care. It was healing, it was forgiveness, it was love too deep for words and it burst from me in wordless sound. After that one shattering effort of my will, my will was released, freed to soar into union with Him. No further conscious effort was required of me at all, not even choosing the syllables with which to express my joy. The syllables were all there, ready-formed for my use, more abundant than my earthbound lips and tongue could give shape to.

It was not that I felt out of control of the situation: I had never felt more truly masterful of myself, more integrated and at peace with warring factions inside myself. I could stop the languages at any instant, but who would? I wanted them to never stop. And so I prayed on, laughing and free, wile the setting sun shone through the window and the stars came out.

You are right on the title and author. I didn't verify it before I typed it out.

I do remember reading that exact excerpt.

Now, what was it, at the end of the book, that gave me the impression that he walked away? Or was something I read on the back cover, perhaps?

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Again, I think that people will always have compassion on people like Borat and, even though they may have been scammed, we still don't know what God was able to do in his life, regardless of what the clip looked like.

Remember the guy that wrote, "They Spoke in Tongues"? He set out to disprove tongues and found out he was wrong. He never did receive the Holy Ghost, but he did find out his view was not correct.

I would have to believe that God would not allow Borat to not feel the sincerity of His presence in that place. I believe it would be totally disingenuous, regardless of bitter feelings toward the UPC, to say that there was not a majority of sincere people in attendance.

Being that we do not know the condition of Borat's heart, we cannot and will not ever fully know what he may have truly felt or experienced during his escapade. I have larger expectations of God.

I keep reading this and not sure I can connect God to it in anyway.

What Borat did was basically blaspheming, so I'm not sure I'd expect God to do anything.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by rgcraig

I keep reading this and not sure I can connect God to it in anyway.

What Borat did was basically blaspheming, so I'm not sure I'd expect God to do anything.

He may have been blaspheming, but he may have been doing what he did out of ignorance not knowing the Word of God fully. Not knowing the Word of God at all. I don't know him or his background. God will be the judge. I have no idea. I just know that if he did that out of ignorance, I believe that God allowed him to know or feel something during his escapade.

I wrote earlier about a girl we baptized that wasn't really quite serious about it. She came out of the water with stammering lips. I mean, noticeable stammering lips. It scared and shocked her. She put her hands to her mouth to try and make it stop. All I can think is that God knew her heart and even if she did that out of ignorance or making fun of what we were doing, God was present and showed her He was real.

That is how I view the Borat thing. If God watches every sparrow that falls and clothes the lilies of the field, He is watching every heart and every motive. I'm not going to be ready to discount that Borat didn't learn or feel something there.

[seekerman]

One thing Borat could have learned is that the carrying on of the folks trying to make him 'get' the Holy Ghost isn't found in scripture. If he left there, read the bible through and through, he'd never find such activity or actions by those who received the Holy Ghost in the early church.

Notice, it was basically about all about tongues. Without tongues, there is no redemption in OP salvation theology. Screaming "let that tongue go"!! over and over. Simply amazing and sad at the same time.

Sadder still is that Borat was still hell bound even if he had fulfilled the requirement of tongues the preachers were so desperately seeking for him. He had not yet had His sins remitted by correct baptism and thus would have been nothing more, at that moment, than a Holy Ghost filled, Spirit born...child of satan?

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by seekerman

One thing Borat could have learned is that the carrying on of the folks trying to make him 'get' the Holy Ghost isn't found in scripture. If he left there, read the bible through and through, he'd never find such activity or actions by those who received the Holy Ghost in the early church.

Notice, it was basically about all about tongues. Without tongues, there is no redemption in OP salvation theology. Screaming "let that tongue go"!! over and over. Simply amazing and sad at the same time.

Sadder still is that Borat was still hell bound even if he had fulfilled the requirement of tongues the preachers were so desperately seeking for him. He had not yet had His sins remitted by correct baptism and thus would have been nothing more, at that moment, than a Holy Ghost filled, Spirit born...child of satan?

I cannot disagree that, for the larger part, we jump too quickly away from true repentance and the importance of baptism to speaking in tongues. You have no stability if you do not begin with true repentance.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by rgcraig

I keep reading this and not sure I can connect God to it in anyway.

What Borat did was basically blaspheming, so I'm not sure I'd expect God to do anything.

The apostle Paul said that he was once a blasphemer but he obtained mercy because he did it in ignorance (1 Timothy 1:13). God is a lot more patient and merciful than we are. We don't really know what He is trying to do in Borat's life or what He will do if Borat allows Him to.

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I cannot disagree that, for the larger part, we jump too quickly away from true repentance and the importance of baptism to speaking in tongues. You have no stability if you do not begin with true repentance.

Couldn't agree more!

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by rgcraig

Couldn't agree more!

Can you agree that you don't know if Borat was doing what he did in ignorance or that he was, in fact, blaspheming? LOL! For me, I don't know.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Sam

The apostle Paul said that he was once a blasphemer but he obtained mercy because he did it in ignorance (1 Timothy 1:13). God is a lot more patient and merciful than we are. We don't really know what He is trying to do in Borat's life or what He will do if Borat allows Him to.

Good post, I agree!