Whats The Point Of The Resurrection Of The Dead?

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Why think eternal life is something that is related to the body alone?

No one said it is related the the natural body only. It has much more fulfillment as pertaining to the life which is to come. That life will be immortal/eternal.

For it we will be equipped with a spiritual/heavenly body.

Nonetheless life for us is always in reference to a bodily presence whether the present life in earthly bodies or the coming life in spiritual bodies.

When the earthly body dies that means WE die.

4: His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. Psalms 146:2-4

And thats what is so important about the resurrection of the dead. When you are resurrected with the new, spiritual body you will live again!

[Michael The Disciple]

A question of a post-life, pre-resurrection existence:

Matthew 17:1 ¶ And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and (1) James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into a high mountain apart: (1) Or Jacob)
2 and he was transfigured before them; and his face did shine as the sun, and his garments became white as the light.
3 And behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elijah talking with him.

Matthew writes this:




1: And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2: And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3: And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
4: Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
5: While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
6: And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.
7: And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.
8: And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.
9: And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead. Matt. 17:1-9

They saw a vision. Supernatural things occur when the Spirit of Elohim is involved. I believe various times people "see things" to bring encouragement or knowledge that are not literal.

Now for those who may not like the answer I say this.

The reason why I took time from the beginning of the thread till now to post abundance of scripture is to lay a foundation for the doctrine of resurrection. Many verses where plain truth is taught.

If I already know that Jesus ONLY has immortality I can be sure that Moses and Elijah do not!

14: That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16: Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. 1 Tim. 6:14-16

I am comfortable with this approach. The visions or the parables will not contradict the plain teaching. Therefore they should be reconciled to the plain teaching instead of the other way around.

Other foundation scripture that should be used to show Moses and Elijah did not actually live in those days might be this one.

20: But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 1 Cor. 15:20

Of all those who "slept" Christ was the first to come back to life. Moses and Elijah had no immortality as evidenced here and 1 Tim. 6:16.

So when we are told the apostles saw a vision I find no problem thinking thats what it actually was. Else what would we do with the plain teaching given by Paul?

[Michael The Disciple]

Then speaking of John the Baptist:

Luke 1:16 And many of the children of Israel shall be turn unto the Lord their God.
17 And he shall (1) go before his [Jesus’] face in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to walk in the wisdom of the just; to make ready for the Lord a people prepared for him. (1) Some ancient authorities read come nigh before his face).

Implied "continued existence" from Malachi 4:5 (3-23) Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the LORD. [JPS]

John came in the spirit and power OF ELIJAH. Jesus identified him as such. He had revelation and understanding of the events and characters that came into his life.

Was he actually the prophet Elijah in reincarnation? Not likely since such doctrine is not taught anywhere else in scripture. Then again according to Paul Jesus is the ONLY ONE who possesses immortality. That rules out Elijah still being alive IMO.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

No one said it is related the the natural body only. It has much more fulfillment as pertaining to the life which is to come. That life will be immortal/eternal.

For it we will be equipped with a spiritual/heavenly body.

Nonetheless life for us is always in reference to a bodily presence whether the present life in earthly bodies or the coming life in spiritual bodies.

When the earthly body dies that means WE die.

4: His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. Psalms 146:2-4

And thats what is so important about the resurrection of the dead. When you are resurrected with the new, spiritual body you will live again!

I already have the eternal life in me that is going to immortalize my body. a

[Michael The Disciple]

There is also Revelation 6:9 ¶ And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of them that had been slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 and they cried with a great voice, saying, How long, O Master, the holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And there was given them to each one a white robe; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little time, until their fellow-servants also and their brethren, who should be killed even as they were, should (1) have fulfilled their course. (1) Some ancient authorities read be fullied in number; 2 Es 4:36)

Much of Revelation is symbolic. The altar is a place of sacrifice. When a sacrifice was killed its life blood wound up at the bottom of the altar in other words UNDER THE ALTAR.

12: And thou shalt take of the blood of the bullock, and put it upon the horns of the altar with thy finger, and pour all the blood beside the bottom of the altar. Exodus 29:12

The blood represents the LIFE.

4: But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat. Gen. 9:4

John sees in vision form Saints are laying down their lifes blood. They are under the altar signifying the pouring out of their blood in sacrifice to Yeshua Messiah.

They cry out for vengence upon their murderers. Does this sound like PARADISE?

They are told to REST until the rest of their brethren will be killed.

Strongs defines rest as "repose".

The Dictionary says repose means to "lie at rest".

Sounds like theses souls are sleeping. This agrees with the fact that Rev. 20:4-5 shows us WHEN the souls came back to life.

4: And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5: But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Rev. 20:4-5

This clarifies the matter. The souls under the altar came to life AT THE RESURRECTION. Souls in this context are plainly said to have been dead and then lived again by means of resurrection. Then others (souls) did NOT LIVE AGAIN until the 1000 years are finished.

So this is not the knockout punch against soul sleep some think it is. On the contrary it confirms it.

After all why would we need a resurrected body if when we die we are already alive with a spiritual body in Heaven?

It makes the important and foundation doctrine of the resurrection of none effect.

Here is something to consider. It is actually the key to understanding. All the places where the dead appear to be alive you are looking at either visions (which need interpretation) or parables.

But whenever plain doctrine is being taught the dead are WAITING RESURRECTION.

[mfblume]

Eternal life is not a thing, it is a person. Jesus is LIFE. He is eternal... no beginning nor ending. Folks, you are not defining the word ETERNAL properly. ETERNAL means having no beginning. That can only apply to the person of Christ.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Eternal life is not a thing, it is a person. Jesus is LIFE. He is eternal... no beginning nor ending. Folks, you are not defining the word ETERNAL properly. ETERNAL means having no beginning. That can only apply to the person of Christ.

You have Christs life in you. Thats true. Yet you will not be SAVED in the sense of gaining immortality until you have ENDURED TO THE END.

12: And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13: But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Matt. 24:12-13

If you are not saved yet its unlikely you possess eternal life. But if you continue on and overcome all things it will be given you.

6: Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: Romans 2:6-7

Immortality.....eternal life is something Elohim WILL RENDER at the last trump according to Paul.

51: Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52: In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53: For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Until then keep your eyes on Jesus! Dont let your love grow cold!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

You have Christs life in you. Thats true. Yet you will not be SAVED in the sense of gaining immortality until you have ENDURED TO THE END.

You missed my point. You are equating gaining immortality in body with gaining eternal life. Eternal life is more than immortality. Immortal is something we can become. Eternal is not. Everything eternal is immortal, but not everything immortal is eternal. And god is the everything that is eternal.

If you are not saved yet its unlikely you possess eternal life.

Those saved have eternal life in them because ONLY JESUS is eternal life.

Again, eternal means having NO BEGINNING nor ending. Immortal only means no ending.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by mfblume

You missed my point. You are equating gaining immortality in body with gaining eternal life. Eternal life is more than immortality. Immortal is something we can become. Eternal is not. Everything eternal is immortal, but not everything immortal is eternal. And god is the everything that is eternal.



Those saved have eternal life in them because ONLY JESUS is eternal life.

Again, eternal means having NO BEGINNING nor ending. Immortal only means no ending.

Mike,

The word eternal has various shades of meaning depending on context. For instance another foundation doctrine is "eternal judgment". This does not mean the wicked began to be punished before time began!

Rather their eternal judgment begins when they are cast into the lake of fire.

Of course Jesus is the source of eternal life, the giver of it. Thats what he does for us by giving us a resurrection. When we receive our spiritual body we will have "obtained" eternal life.

Until then we have it in "earnest". He pledges it through giving us his Spirit.

So its accurate to say we have eternal life. Its also accurate to say we are still waiting for it.

[Michael The Disciple]

I will add this. In practical reality I see no difference in the effect to the one who is "asleep". The time between our death and resurrection will be of absolutely no consequence.

Because we are not aware of time passing for us it will seem like a moment. Like the twinkling of an eye and BAM the trumpet sounds to wake us into immortality!

51: Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52: In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1 Cor. 15:51-52

This explains why Paul tho teaching what I am teaching here could still say:

23: For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Phil. 1:23

So to the dead it makes no difference. Its the living that must be patient and comfort themselves by this knowledge and the hope of the resurrection.