The Remission is Different from Forgiveness Myth

[Sam]

continued from part one


Here is how APHIEMI is used in the KJV New Testament

Mt 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, SUFFER it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he SUFFERED him.
Mt 4:11 Then the devil LEAVETH him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.
Mt 4:20 And they straightway LEFT their nets, and followed him.
Mt 4:22 And they immediately LEFT the ship and their father, and followed him.
Mt 5:24 LEAVE there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
Mt 5:40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, LET him HAVE thy cloke also.
Mt 6:12 And FORGIVE us our debts, as we FORGIVE our debtors.
Mt 6:14 For if ye FORGIVE men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also FORGIVE you:
Mt 6:15 But if ye FORGIVE not men their trespasses, neither will your Father FORGIVE your trespasses.
Mt 7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, LET me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
Mt 8:15 And he touched her hand, and the fever LET her: and she arose, and ministered unto them.
Mt 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and LET the dead bury their dead.
Mt 9:2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be FORGIVEN thee.
Mt 9:5 For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be FORGIVEN thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?
Mt 9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to FORGIVE sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.
Mt 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be FORGIVEN unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost SHALL not BE FORGIVEN unto men.
Mt 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be FORGIVEN him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it SHALL not BE FORGIVEN him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
Mt 13:30 LET both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Mt 13:36 Then Jesus SEND the multitude AWAY, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
Mt 15:14 LET them ALONE: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
Mt 18:12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not LEAVE the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
Mt 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I FORGIVE him? till seven times?
Mt 18:27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and FORGAVE him the debt.
Mt 18:32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I FORGAVE thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
Mt 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts FORGIVE not every one his brother their trespasses.
Mt 19:14 But Jesus said, SUFFER little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
Mt 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have FORSAKEN all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
Mt 19:29 And every one that hath FORSAKENhouses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
Mt 22:22 When they had heard these words, they marvelled, and LEFT him, and went their way.
Mt 22:25 Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, LEFT his wife unto his brother:
Mt 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither SUFFER ye them that are entering to go in.
Mt 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have OMITTED the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to LEAVE the other UNDONE.
Mt 23:38 Behold, your house is LEFT unto you desolate.
Mt 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be LEFT here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Mt 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other LEFT.
Mt 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other LEFT.
Mt 26:44 And he LEFT them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words.
Mt 26:56 But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples FORSOOK him, and fled.
Mt 27:49 The rest said, LET BE, let us see whether Elias will come to save him.
Mt 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, YIELDED UP the ghost.
Mr 1:18 And straightway they FORSOOK their nets, and followed him.
Mr 1:20 And straightway he called them: and they LEFT their father Zebedee in the ship with the hired servants, and went after him.
Mr 1:31 And he came and took her by the hand, and lifted her up; and immediately the fever LEFT her, and she ministered unto them.
Mr 1:34 And he healed many that were sick of divers diseases, and cast out many devils; and SUFFERED not the devils to speak, because they knew him.
Mr 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be FORGIVEN thee.
Mr 2:7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can FORGIVE sins but God only?
Mr 2:9 Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be FORGIVEN thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?
Mr 2:10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to FORGIVE sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)
Mr 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be FORGIVEN unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
Mr 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be FORGIVEN them.
Mr 4:36 And when they had SENT AWAY the multitude, they took him even as he was in the ship. And there were also with him other little ships.
Mr 5:19 Howbeit Jesus SUFFERED him not, but saith unto him, Go home to thy friends, and tell them how great things the Lord hath done for thee, and hath had compassion on thee.
Mr 5:37 And he SUFFERED no man to follow him, save Peter, and James, and John the brother of James.
Mr 7:8 For LAYING ASIDE the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
Mr 7:12 And ye SUFFER him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
Mr 7:27 But Jesus said unto her, LET the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast it unto the dogs.
Mr 8:13 And he LEFT them, and entering into the ship again departed to the other side.
Mr 10:14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, SUFFER the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
Mr 10:28 Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have LEFT all, and have followed thee.
Mr 10:29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath LEFT house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel’s,
Mr 11:6 And they said unto them even as Jesus had commanded: and they LET them GO.
Mr 11:16 And would not SUFFER that any man should carry any vessel through the temple.
Mr 11:25 And when ye stand praying, FORGIVE, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may FORGIVE you your trespasses.
Mr 11:26 But if ye do not FORGIVE, neither will your Father which is in heaven FORGIVE your trespasses.
Mr 12:12 And they sought to lay hold on him, but feared the people: for they knew that he had spoken the parable against them: and they LEFT him, and went their way.
Mr 12:19 Master, Moses wrote unto us, If a man’s brother die, and leave his wife behind him, and LEAVE no children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.
Mr 12:20 Now there were seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and dying LEFT no seed.
Mr 12:21 And the second took her, and died, neither LEFT he any seed: and the third likewise.
Mr 12:22 And the seven had her, and LEFT no seed: last of all the woman died also.
Mr 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be LEFT one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Mr 13:34 For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who LEFT his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
Mr 14:6 And Jesus said, LET her ALONE; why trouble ye her? she hath wrought a good work on me.
Mr 14:50 And they all FORSOOK him, and fled.
Mr 15:36 And one ran and filled a spunge full of vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink, saying, LET ALONE; let us see whether Elias will come to take him down.
Mr 15:37 And Jesus CRIED with a loud voice, and GAVE UP the ghost.
Lu 4:39 And he stood over her, and rebuked the fever; and it LEFT her: and immediately she arose and ministered unto them.
Lu 5:11 And when they had brought their ships to land, they FORSOOK all, and followed him.

to be continued in part 3

[Ev. Duane Williams]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Sir ... if l handed you a Spanish bible would you read it?

I can't teach your remission is different from forgiveness doctrine using a Spanish bible ... which I do use ... EVEN IF I TRIED TO ....

as for your attempt to dismiss the ability of thousands of bible students who have studied basic Greek terms and the unanimous consensus of theologians ... both expert and amateur ... including David Bernard and Daniel Segraves .... on a basic theological concept/word and it's meaning ...

shows your contempt and/or negligence for interpreting and rightly dividing the Word without bias ... and ultimately TRUTH, IMO.

Simply takes a Greek/English dictionary for this simple exercise, Elder ... not years of linguistic study.

I wonder if I can throw out this desperate barb next time you try to speak authoritatively about the Greek in regards to such words as kouros?

Dan,

In many places throughout the Bible both Hebrew and Greek words have more than one meaning which would be nonsensical if the same English word was used for each. For example, the word "know" in KJV has two obviously different meanings. When Adam "knew" Eve, it was obviously different from "knowing" the Truth, no? When God "repented of the evil" He was about to do, you surely don't think He was about to engage in Satan's type of evil, do you? If I say the word "jam", am I talking about jelly, improvised music, paper stuck in a copier, or someone in a difficult situation?

Having said that, I haven't studied this issue out completely, so I must go into Berean mode on this one, but I'll get back to you.

[Sam]

continued from part 2

Lu 5:20 And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are FORGIVEN thee.
Lu 5:21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can FORGIVE sins, but God alone?
Lu 5:23 Whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be FORGIVEN thee; or to say, Rise up and walk?
Lu 5:24 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power upon earth to FORGIVE sins, (he said unto the sick of the palsy,) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy couch, and go into thine house.
Lu 6:42 Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, LET me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother’s eye.
Lu 7:47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are FORGIVEN for she loved much: but to whom little is FORGIVEN, the same loveth little.
Lu 7:48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are FORGIVEN.
Lu 7:49 And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that FORGIVETH sins also?
Lu 8:51 And when he came into the house, he SUFFERED no man to go in, save Peter, and James, and John, and the father and the mother of the maiden.
Lu 9:60 Jesus said unto him, LET the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.
Lu 10:30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, LEAVING him half dead.
Lu 11:4 And FORGIVE us our sins; for we also FORGIVE every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.
Lu 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to LEAVE the other UNDONE.
Lu 12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be FORGIVEN him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be FORGIVEN.
Lu 12:39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have SUFFERED his house to be broken through.
Lu 13:8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, LET it ALONE this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
Lu 13:35 Behold, your house is LEFT unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
Lu 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, FORGIVE him.
Lu 17:4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt FORGIVE him.
Lu 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be LEFT.
Lu 17:35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other LEFT.
Lu 17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other LEFT.
Lu 18:16 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, SUFFER little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
Lu 18:28 Then Peter said, Lo, we have LEFT all, and followed thee.
Lu 18:29 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath LEFT house, or parents, or brethren, or wife, or children, for the kingdom of God’s sake,
Lu 19:44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not LEAVE in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.
Lu 21:6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be LEFT one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Lu 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, FORGIVE them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
Joh 4:3 He LEFT Judaea, and departed again into Galilee.
Joh 4:28 The woman then LEFT her waterpot, and went her way into the city, and saith to the men,
Joh 4:52 Then enquired he of them the hour when he began to amend. And they said unto him, Yesterday at the seventh hour the fever LEFT him.
Joh 8:29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not LEFT me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
Joh 10:12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and LEAVETH the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
Joh 11:44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and LET him GO.
Joh 11:48 If we LET him thus ALONE, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.
Joh 12:7 Then said Jesus, LET her ALONE: against the day of my burying hath she kept this.
Joh 14:18 I will not LEAVE you comfortless: I will come to you.
Joh 14:27 Peace I LEAVE with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
Joh 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I LEAVE the world, and go to the Father.
Joh 16:32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall LEAVE me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.
Joh 18:8 Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, LET these go their way:
Joh 20:23 Whose soever sins ye REMIT, they are REMITTED unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
Ac 8:22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be FORGIVEN thee.
Ac 14:17 Nevertheless he LEFT not himself without witness, in that he did good, and gave us rain from heaven, and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness.
Ro 1:27 And likewise also the men, LEAVING the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Ro 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are FORGIVEN, and whose sins are covered.
1Co 7:11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and LET not the husband PUT AWAY his wife.
1Co 7:12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let HIM not PUT her AWAY.
1Co 7:13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not LEAVE him.
Heb 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he LEFT nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
Heb 6:1 Therefore LEAVING the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Jas 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be FORGIVEN him.
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to FORGIVE us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jo 2:12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are FORGIVEN you for his name’s sake.
Re 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast LEFT thy first love.
Re 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not SUFFER their dead bodies to be put in graves.

[Ev. Duane Williams]

Bro. Jim just inadvertently made my point, I think. Try replacing all those examples with the word "forgiveness" and see what you get!

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Ev. Duane Williams

Dan,

In many places throughout the Bible both Hebrew and Greek words have more than one meaning which would be nonsensical if the same English word was used for each. For example, the word "know" in KJV has two obviously different meanings. When Adam "knew" Eve, it was obviously different from "knowing" the Truth, no? When God "repented of the evil" He was about to do, you surely don't think He was about to engage in Satan's type of evil, do you? If I say the word "jam", am I talking about jelly, improvised music, paper stuck in a copier, or someone in a difficult situation?

Having said that, I haven't studied this issue out completely, so I must go into Berean mode on this one, but I'll get back to you.

and the Greek word "eis" just like the English word "for" can have more than one meaning.

In Acts 2:38 where it speaks of being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ "for" (Greek word "eis") the remission/forgiveness of sins, it could mean either "for" (in order to obtain) forgiveness of sins or it could mean "for" (because of) forgiveness of sins. Greek experts have been quoted here by folks who see it either way and, of course, the experts they quote see it that same way. Even the experts don't agree among themselves. In English we might say that a person is wanted "for" (because of) bank robbery and then go on to tell you to see the local sheriff "for" (in order to obtain) the reword. The word "for" has to be interpreted in the context. If a person believes that sin is forgiven/remitted/washed away at baptism, that person will say that baptism is "for" (in order to obtain) the remission. If a person believes that baptism is forgiven at repentance/confession, that person will say that baptism is "for" (because of) remission. It seems that we all interpret Scripture based on our previously formed beliefs. I guess that's because we're still human.

[Apocrypha]

Originally Posted by Ev. Duane Williams

Bro. Jim just inadvertently made my point, I think. Try replacing all those examples with the word "forgiveness" and see what you get!

what was your point? i missed it.

[Ev. Duane Williams]

My point was that just because it's the same Greek word doesn't mean it has the same definition.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Ev. Duane Williams

Bro. Jim just inadvertently made my point, I think. Try replacing all those examples with the word "forgiveness" and see what you get!

The Greek definition of aphesis simply means freedom or pardon. Changing the English words in the texts only reinforces possible preconceived biases and does not solve the issue. Some people insist that remission is not the same as forgiveness, so replacing them with each other would not accomplish anything. We must got to the Greek definition, alone.

[Apocrypha]

Originally Posted by Ev. Duane Williams

My point was that just because it's the same Greek word doesn't mean it has the same definition.

oh, in that case lets begin the debate on why the KJV translators used Holiness instead of Sanctification, they are both the same exact greek word... but have different understandings in english.

With the exception of where the word Hagiosune (and i know that off the top of my head) is used, almost every other verse on NT holiness could be reworded as Santification... imagine the legalistic teaching that would demolish in the process

holiness is a state

sanctification is a process


thats a much more fun debate than repentence and remittance (welcome to AFF btw, please stay and debate... you may become a convert to grace along the way)

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Apocrypha

oh, in that case lets begin the debate on why the KJV translators used Holiness instead of Sanctification, they are both the same exact greek word... but have different understandings in english.

With the exception of where the word Hagiosune (and i know that off the top of my head) is used, almost every other verse on NT holiness could be reworded as Santification... imagine the legalistic teaching that would demolish in the process

holiness is a state

sanctification is a process


thats a much more fun debate than repentence and remittance (welcome to AFF btw, please stay and debate... you may become a convert to grace along the way)

What's the end result of sanctification?

BTW, that would be an interesting discussion.