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  #361  
Old 07-03-2018, 09:55 PM
berkeley berkeley is offline
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Re: Uncut Hair and the Nazirite Vow for Women

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Originally Posted by rdp View Post
*And there were also numerous quotes (and I have sooo many more) that state that the Greek term "to wear long hair" (Komao) defines as "to not cut one's hair." I can present an entire paper to this end from a professor if you like if I can figure out how to post it on here (I only have it in a PDF).
Try to upload usin the paper clip as you would upload an image.


If that doesn’t work convert pdf to word document. Then copy and paste.
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  #362  
Old 07-03-2018, 10:32 PM
rdp rdp is offline
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Re: Uncut Hair and the Nazirite Vow for Women

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Originally Posted by Costeon View Post
I spent a lot of time arguing in previous posts that the verb keiro (v. 6) involves the same kind of cutting in the NT, Greek OT, and other Koine literature whether it's referring to males, females, or animals (cutting short or off). It therefore would not be surprising that in my last post I would suggest that in 1 Cor 11.14-15 komao "have long hair" is also referring to the same kind of thing whether for males and females. I clearly distinguished when one would be acceptable to a man and when one would be acceptable to a woman.
*I spent a lot of time pointing to these very verses which explicitly state that what is acceptable for a man is not acceptable for a woman as it relates to Greek terms. IMO, you are simply being selective in what Greek terms you will apply across the board (e.g., "to cut" [keiro]) and what Greek terms you refuse to do the same (e.g., "to wear long hair" [komao])...which has been my point all along.

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In 1 Cor 11 Paul is contrasting two opposite things that would have been immediately understandable to those in that culture: short hair like only a man in their culture would wear and the long hair that only a woman in that culture would wear. Paul offers no precise definitions of what these are. Nor am I aware of any precise definitions from other ancient authors that say something like "shorn hair is when it is not touching the ear and is no more than one inch longer than the natural hair line in the back," etc., or "long hair is hair that has never been cut" or "long hair is only when it has passed the mid point of the back," etc. We have sculptures and other depictions from that era that give us an idea of what Paul is talking about. But Paul doesn't define them because it would have been unnecessary, being obvious to those he's writing to.
*I already presented a mountain of lexical and historical quotes that define keiro as simply "to trim or cut" in 11.6 - as well as numerous sources that define "to wear long hair" as simply "to not cut one's hair." Shall I begin posting all of my lexical data on komao that specifically says "to not cut one's hair?" Also, the sculptures you posted actually seem to make my very points all the more (and were these Christians?).

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It seems to me that Paul is not more definite here because 1 Cor 11 is not his definitive guide to hair for the Christian. He does not provide all the detail that we might want in order to answer the questions we are interested in, because he is not really speaking to the issue we as Apostolics have generally been interested in--primarily, can women cut their hair?, and to a lesser extent, what length of hair can a man have and it still be considered short?
*Not so sure I would agree w. this since he couched his assertions in such important doctrines as headship and nature. But, neither do I see a pressing need to address what you say here.

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If Paul was writing primarily about hair for all people and all cultures, and if his teaching on hair was essential to the Christian life, even essential to salvation, then we would reasonably expect him to leave nothing to debate or guess work on length and to say clearly if a women could trim theirs at all. And like all other essential teachings, we would expect there to be at least one more passage in Paul's letters or at least one passage in another NT book that explicitly deals with hair length. Even a single command from the OT would help. But we have none of this.
*Is there an "explicit command" to attend church every time the doors are open? I could list many other things we do that is not explicitly commanded (and certainly not more than one time) in the Bible. I will make a list if need be (might be a good study actually). Simply, if it's written even once that's sufficient for me since "all Scripture is θεόπνευστος (God-breathed) and profitable for teaching" (2 Tim. 3.16).

*Further, Paul concludes his hair teachings by affirming that there's no other practice relevant to this topic "in the churches of God" (11.16). And, the entire book of Corinthians was addressed to "all that in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1.2).


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Originally Posted by Costeon View Post
Since Paul doesn't define his terms, we go astray when we precisely define them for him. Esaias and I have mentioned some of the conundrums that arise from precisely defining "shorn hair" as "trimmed at all" and "long hair" as "uncut hair." If we define the terms for him, we can't escape the conundrums.
*Agreed, which is precisely why I allowed his selected terms to speak for and identify themselves. As I have demonstrated over and over, "shorn" literally defines as "to cut or trim the hair," while "to wear long hair" is defined as "to not cut one's hair."

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Originally Posted by Costeon View Post
Since we can't define the terms precisely, having no guide from Scripture, it seems reasonable to conclude that establishing a universal standard for proper hair length is not, therefore, what Paul is ultimately trying to teach in this passage.
*I disagree based upon the originally inspired language as pointed out in this thread. And, not to beat a dead horse, but I do have much more from Greek linguists.

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Originally Posted by Costeon View Post
Is it possible for him leave the terms about hair vague and still use hair to teach something clear to the Corinthians? Yes. Paul could speak about these two general categories of hair, knowing what they generally referred to in that culture and knowing how the Corinthians would naturally feel about them in reference to women and men. He appeals to what he knows would be their natural feelings about the appropriateness of mannish or long hair on women to ultimately reaffirm that women (married women in particular) should continue to wear head coverings while at worship as was expected in that culture for women out in public.
*There's much debate over whether Paul has married women in view or not in this unit of passages (as you undoubtedly know). And, i do not believe that context or meanings are "vague." For me, it is clear what he is saying in the overall schematics and context (though I do agree that 11.6 takes some work).

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He can speak of hair length in an imprecise way to argue precisely for head coverings for women, but he can't speak of hair length in an imprecise way to argue precisely for a universal standard of appropriate hair length for all people at all times in all cultures. Since he does not in fact speak of hair length in a precise way, therefore he is not talking about a universal standard for hair length.
*I vehemently disagree and would honestly say the polar opposite of this claim. That is, I would turn this assertion completely over and say that since Paul addressed this letter to "all in every place," appeals to "nature," uses Greek terms that are defined by both Classical and Koine' linguists as simply "to cut, trim or not cut one's hair," identifies those who diverge from this doctrine as a "disgrace," said there is no other practice regarding this topic in "the churches of God," ties this doctrine to the created order and headship - I have an absolute mandate to teach this same doctrine.

*I know we vehemently disagree, but I will once again affirm that I appreciate your research methodology. You have made me think this out in the privacy and inner-most chambers of my heart. I want to be right w. God on Judgment Day!
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Last edited by rdp; 07-04-2018 at 12:22 AM.
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  #363  
Old 07-04-2018, 12:04 AM
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Re: Uncut Hair and the Nazirite Vow for Women

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Originally Posted by rdp View Post
*And there were also numerous quotes (and I have sooo many more) that state that the Greek term "to wear long hair" (Komao) defines as "to not cut one's hair." I can present an entire paper to this end from a professor if you like if I can figure out how to post it on here (I only have it in a PDF).
You can upload PDFs as an attachment. If it is too large and exceeds the forum limit size, just load it to your website and give me a link to it to read.
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  #364  
Old 07-04-2018, 12:13 AM
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Re: Uncut Hair and the Nazirite Vow for Women

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You can upload PDFs as an attachment. If it is too large and exceeds the forum limit size, just load it to your website and give me a link to it to read.
You can also upload it to www.pdf-archive.com and leave a link to it (see in my signature, I have a link to a PDF I created).
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  #365  
Old 07-04-2018, 08:12 AM
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Re: Uncut Hair and the Nazirite Vow for Women

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You can also upload it to www.pdf-archive.com and leave a link to it (see in my signature, I have a link to a PDF I created).
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  #366  
Old 07-05-2018, 10:35 PM
Costeon Costeon is offline
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Re: Uncut Hair and the Nazirite Vow for Women

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*I know we vehemently disagree, but I will once again affirm that I appreciate your research methodology. You have made me think this out in the privacy and inner-most chambers of my heart. I want to be right w. God on Judgment Day!
I appreciate the kind words and appreciate that you have made me search these things out much more carefully than I had before. Even if we don't agree at least we have given our best effort to understand the passage, v. 6 in particular, since that has been the focus of our debate. I guess that's all we can ask of each other.
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  #367  
Old 07-05-2018, 10:51 PM
rdp rdp is offline
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Re: Uncut Hair and the Nazirite Vow for Women

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I appreciate the kind words and appreciate that you have made me search these things out much more carefully than I had before. Even if we don't agree at least we have given our best effort to understand the passage, v. 6 in particular, since that has been the focus of our debate. I guess that's all we can ask of each other.
*My sentiments precisely. You have certainly made some salient points and have garnered my respect.

*God bless.
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  #368  
Old 07-06-2018, 12:07 AM
Costeon Costeon is offline
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Re: Uncut Hair and the Nazirite Vow for Women

And in the spirit of giving our best effort, I went to my storage unit and dug out my BDAG and reread the entry on keiro. :-) I went through the tedium of reading the foreword and introduction to make sure I understood how they present the data for each word. It was enlightening.

It helped me understand what I had only felt vaguely about the entry on keiro--that it was not as detailed as it should be to eliminate ambiguity. One of the things Danker emphasizes about this work is that they made an effort to not just give one or two-word glosses in English of the Greek words but to give extended definitions of a word to help readers understand its full meaning. The extended definitions appear in bold non-italic type.

But, unfortunately, they didn't do that for every word. When they felt a mere word in English "is sufficient to convey the meaning" of the Greek word, this one word is given in bold italic type "without extended definition" (Foreword, viii). It would have been quite helpful for our debate if they had given a fuller explanation of the meaning. You will note, that only one word appears in the entry for keiro in bold italics, and that word is "shear."

What this means is that BDAG says that this one word sufficiently conveys the meaning of keiro. That is, keiro = shear. So for all voices--active, middle, or passive--BDAG gives the basic meaning of this verb as "shear." They felt this was sufficient. I really don't. In my mind, when I hear or read "shear" I think "remove hair." This is the first definition given in the dictionaries I checked, but that is not the only meaning listed, though I cannot remember ever hearing someone use the word in the sense of "trim," but, nevertheless, some may use it that way.

Now up to this point we have been arguing over certain words that appear in non-bold italics cut one's hair or have one's hair cut in this entry. We have described these as what the word "means in the middle voice." To be as precise as possible, according to the foreword, this isn't the definition of the verb but "suggested translation equivalents." The definition of the verb is the one-word "shear." BDAG does not give any suggested translations when this word is used of sheep, for obvious reasons. We all know what shearing sheep involves. But it does give this suggested definition for the examples involving human hair. Now I can understand why those who understand this verb the way you do might immediately think that this would support your cause. But I don't think it does.

After this suggested translation is listed, BDAG lists an example of where this definition would fit. The example is in Xenophon's work Hellenica, 1, 7, 8: "After this the Apaturia was celebrated, at which fathers and kinsmen meet together. Accordingly Theramenes and his supporters arranged at this festival with a large number of people, who were clad in mourning garments and had their hair close shaven, to attend the meeting of the Assembly, pretending that they were kinsmen of those who had perished, and they bribed Callixeinus to accuse the generals in the Senate."

So BDAG suggests this as an example that means "to cut one's hair." But here it's actually removing the hair, not trimming it.

BDAG then gives the example of Paul in Acts 18:18 noting that it specifically has "ten kephalen" ("the/his head") and offers the suggested translation as "have one's hair cut" (as the result of a vow)." But here Paul cut's his hair off, as was the custom after completing a vow. He doesn't just trim it.

Then it gives two examples that are preceded by the abbreviation "Abs.," which means "absolute." In other words, the verb appears by itself without qualification or more specificity; it doesn't have, say, "his head" as in Acts 18:18.

The first example is from a work on the fall of Troy by Quintus Smyrnaeus, book 3, lines 686 and 688. Achilles has fallen in battle and his men and concubine are mourning him. "All their hair the Myrmidons shore, and shrouded with the same the body of their king. Briseis laid her own shorn tresses on the corpse, her gift, her last, unto her lord.” So here, Achilles' men cut their hair off and cover his body with it; then Briseis cuts her hair off and places it on his body. This reminds me of the example that Adam Clarke gives from Euripides' play Orestes where Helen is criticized for just cutting the ends off of her hair so that her hair would still be beautiful and her appearance would not be altered rather than doing what was customary, cutting it off, as we see Briseis doing here. So we have another example--here both men and a woman--cutting off their hair, but BDAG suggests the translation "cut one's hair."

And finally, BDAG lists 1 Cor 11.6ab.

So, for the verb Keiro, BDAG gives the one-word equivalent "definition" "shear." It notes that this verb is used of sheep and human hair and gives four examples of this verb being used for the cutting of human hair, both male and female. It gives the suggested definition for these as "cut one's hair or have one's hair cut." In three of them, they are cutting off their hair not trimming it. The remaining one from 1 Cor 11.6 is in the same context as the verb for "shaving." I have noted before that Micah 1.16 (LXX) has these two verbs together as well, both commands for Israel, depicted as a woman, to do to her hair in light of their coming exile.

I don't expect this to change anybody's mind, but I find this evidence compelling that Paul does not mean just "to trim" in 1 Cor 11.6. I think this can be maintained just from BDAG itself, but I find it all the more compelling in light of the other evidence I have presented from the Greek OT and other Koine literature.

This evidence from BDAG helps us to see why other lexicons, such as Abbott-Smith's (NT) and LSJ (Classical and Koine), give the meaning as "cut off one's hair" in addition to "shear."

But why does BDAG give the suggested translation as "to cut one's hair" when three of the four clearly mean "cut off"? Perhaps as Esaias, I believe, has suggested, when non-Apostolics, who would know nothing of the debate over the doctrine of uncut hair, hear of someone cutting their hair in a context of mourning or shame, they understand it to mean "to cut one's hair substantially" not just "to trim."
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  #369  
Old 07-06-2018, 12:29 AM
Costeon Costeon is offline
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Re: Uncut Hair and the Nazirite Vow for Women

So it seems to me that the argument for uncut hair rests on komao meaning or implying "uncut"--after all, as I have heard many people ask over the years "well, how long is long"? That and the argument that "anti" means hair is given instead of a veil/head covering.

For what it's worth, one thing I want to add is that, though I don't agree with the doctrine of uncut hair or the wearing of head coverings today, I certainly don't ridicule those beliefs or think someone is stupid for holding to one of those views. I may argue vigorously against a view, but I still think of you as my brothers and sisters in the Lord, and though we may sharply disagree on some views, I think of myself as a million miles closer to you than to non-Apostolics. Even when you're in grievous doctrinal error on certain points--just kidding! LOL!
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  #370  
Old 07-06-2018, 12:30 AM
Costeon Costeon is offline
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Re: Uncut Hair and the Nazirite Vow for Women

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*My sentiments precisely. You have certainly made some salient points and have garnered my respect.

*God bless.
I would say that about you as well.
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