Apostolic Friends Forum
Tab Menu 1
Go Back   Apostolic Friends Forum > The Sanctuary > Deep Waters
Facebook

Notices

Deep Waters 'Deep Calleth Unto Deep ' -The place to go for Ministry discussions. Please keep it civil. Remember to discuss the issues, not each other.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #351  
Old 09-13-2017, 01:53 PM
Esaias's Avatar
Esaias Esaias is offline
Unvaxxed Pureblood


 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Zion aka TEXAS
Posts: 26,685
Re: The Sabbath Day, Should You Keep or not Keep?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean View Post
God filled us with the sabbath. We are at full time rest from our works to please God.

In the O.T., they did not have this peace with God that we have.
So then, we don't have to honour Mom and Dad, either.
__________________
Visit the Apostolic House Church YouTube Channel!


Biblical Worship - free pdf http://www.pdf-archive.com/2016/02/21/biblicalworship4/

Conditional immortality proven - https://ia800502.us.archive.org/3/it...surrection.pdf

Reply With Quote
  #352  
Old 09-13-2017, 03:08 PM
peter83 peter83 is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,395
Re: The Sabbath Day, Should You Keep or not Keep?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
So then, we don't have to honour Mom and Dad, either.
Very smart!😉😞
So we can swear too? Or is it enough to love your brother and hate your enemies? Or we can divorse?
Reply With Quote
  #353  
Old 09-13-2017, 07:35 PM
Sean Sean is offline
Banned


 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 23,543
Re: The Sabbath Day, Should You Keep or not Keep?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
So then, we don't have to honour Mom and Dad, either.
The Spirit of Love(Holy Ghost) will teach us what we should do....


16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh....


22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance....
Reply With Quote
  #354  
Old 09-13-2017, 08:32 PM
Esaias's Avatar
Esaias Esaias is offline
Unvaxxed Pureblood


 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Zion aka TEXAS
Posts: 26,685
Re: The Sabbath Day, Should You Keep or not Keep?

Quote:
Originally Posted by peter83 View Post
Very smart!😉😞
So we can swear too? Or is it enough to love your brother and hate your enemies? Or we can divorse?
Apparently, we can do whatever we want as long as we "love" everyone. And, best not try to define "love", cuz leguhlism.
__________________
Visit the Apostolic House Church YouTube Channel!


Biblical Worship - free pdf http://www.pdf-archive.com/2016/02/21/biblicalworship4/

Conditional immortality proven - https://ia800502.us.archive.org/3/it...surrection.pdf

Reply With Quote
  #355  
Old 09-13-2017, 08:34 PM
Esaias's Avatar
Esaias Esaias is offline
Unvaxxed Pureblood


 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Zion aka TEXAS
Posts: 26,685
Re: The Sabbath Day, Should You Keep or not Keep?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean View Post
The Spirit of Love(Holy Ghost) will teach us what we should do....


16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh....


22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance....
And how will the Spirit teach us what we should do?

And how would a person know if they are on the right track or not?

Please explain.
__________________
Visit the Apostolic House Church YouTube Channel!


Biblical Worship - free pdf http://www.pdf-archive.com/2016/02/21/biblicalworship4/

Conditional immortality proven - https://ia800502.us.archive.org/3/it...surrection.pdf

Reply With Quote
  #356  
Old 09-13-2017, 09:31 PM
mfblume's Avatar
mfblume mfblume is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Portage la Prairie, MB CANADA
Posts: 38,161
Re: The Sabbath Day, Should You Keep or not Keep?

Legalism rears its head when someone says we do not live by rules written on paper, and then accusation returns saying that is antinomianism, as though one does not believe the Spirit leads us against sin without a written codebook of rules.

Ironically, that's exactly what Paul was accused of teaching.
__________________
...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.

"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
Reply With Quote
  #357  
Old 09-14-2017, 12:12 AM
Esaias's Avatar
Esaias Esaias is offline
Unvaxxed Pureblood


 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Zion aka TEXAS
Posts: 26,685
Re: The Sabbath Day, Should You Keep or not Keep?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
And how will the Spirit teach us what we should do?

And how would a person know if they are on the right track or not?

Please explain.
Sean?
__________________
Visit the Apostolic House Church YouTube Channel!


Biblical Worship - free pdf http://www.pdf-archive.com/2016/02/21/biblicalworship4/

Conditional immortality proven - https://ia800502.us.archive.org/3/it...surrection.pdf

Reply With Quote
  #358  
Old 09-14-2017, 01:00 AM
peter83 peter83 is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,395
Re: The Sabbath Day, Should You Keep or not Keep?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Apparently, we can do whatever we want as long as we "love" everyone. And, best not try to define "love", cuz leguhlism.
Am i saying something like that? Who told you that "in the name of love" we can do what ever we want? Are you in a position to distinguish the religion and condemnation that you have?

In the law is written to swear in his name. In the new testament Jesus said to DO NOT SEAR AT ALL.
In the law is written to divorce your wife . In the new testament is SIN.
In the law is written Love your brother and hate your enemy.In the New Testament says LOVE YOUR ENEMIES.

Do you understand my point? Your logic is that if we dont keep Sabbaths we sin. The same logic goes for all Jewish Law keepers.
Is Jesus offender of the law then? (NO)
Do you understand that the Law of the Spirit and Love is much more than the Old Testament law? Do you see how the law is coming to perfection now?
Do you understand that
"unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall by no means enter the kingdom of heaven."
Reply With Quote
  #359  
Old 09-14-2017, 10:13 AM
Raffi Raffi is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 211
Re: The Sabbath Day, Should You Keep or not Keep?

It has been a rough past few days, but His Grace is more than sufficient to meet our needs here. I want to thank all of you for your prayers during Irma, and for your continued prayers now. We and everyone we know are fine. No major injuries and little loss of property.

Also, I want to thank everyone who has contributed an opinion to this thread. It has been interesting to see everyone's perspective. What I have gathered is that most of you lean toward a particular perspective which maintains that The Law is no more now than a matter that is written on our heart by The Holy Ghost and has ceased so much to be an external rule and has become really more a "spiritual principle" that more or less moves us to live and respond according to whatever is commensurate to LOVE.

What I get from most of you is that The Law is written on our hearts. It is the perfect law of the Spirit. The Law that is written upon our hearts is LOVE.
So, the old Sabbath was just a shadow, but Christ is the substance, and since Christ has come as the substance, the shadow is gone away. Keeping a literal Sabbath today reveals a weak and beggarly faith. As Christians, we are to walk in the REST that the Sabbath only alluded to. Jesus is our Sabbath now, and as such he has done away with the need to keep a particular day. If we attempt to keep The Sabbath today, we implicitly deny the real principle to which the old Sabbath pointed, and explicitly fall into the trap of legalism, thus nullifying Saving Faith, and winding up in spiritual adultery.

This is pretty much the argument that I see most of you as saying. Correct me if you think I missed your point. Otherwise, thank you for your input.
Reply With Quote
  #360  
Old 09-14-2017, 11:26 AM
Raffi Raffi is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 211
Re: The Sabbath Day, Should You Keep or not Keep?

So, I think the difference that I have with most of this kind of interpretation is over the understanding of the concept and meaning of "rest" on the one hand, and of the outworking of LOVE, on the other. To me, the understanding of Law as having moved into a matter merely of "spiritual principle" seems to allow God's Guidelines and Instructions for Righteousness to pass into a hazy realm of featureless "fuzzy feeling" ambiguity. As such, it seems to me that Divine Law and Revealed Righteousness no longer has any real teeth because there is no longer any real quantifiable standard for Holiness.

I get that by the above popular definition there is a rejection of "legalism" and a desire to elevate Law to a matter more than just a code written out on parchment, and I agree with that. In fact, it is my belief that that was the intent of God's Law all along, which is why God said of His Torah, "And these Words, which I command thee this day, shall be IN THINE HEART." (Dt. 6:6). I believe it had ALWAYS been the purpose of God that His Law be more than just a matter of written restrictions. And to that point Moses spoke of having a "CIRCUMCISED HEART" (Dt. 10:12-17). I think that the Hebrews at one time lost sight of that FULLER meaning of The Law, and that is why the Messiah came to clear up the true meaning, intent, and TRUE application of The Law . . . not to cancel The Law, or to do away with It entirely.

I agree with you concerning the Principle of Rest. But where I differ with you is that I do not think "resting in Christ" means the negation of God's requirement of obedience. I think that "resting in Him" simply means that we do not have to "work at God's willingness to save us". It is a kind of euphemism for trusting wholly in Him, that He has our Salvation in His control. We are to relax in knowing that, trusting that HE alone saves us, and therefore we need not live in anxiety about whether we are "good enough". But I do not see where believing this becomes an excuse that lets us off the hook for obeying His Directives or NOT DOING what He has instructed of us as His People. Neither do I think this was the Apostolic understanding.

I think this phrase "resting in Him" is akin in principle to "ABIDING in Him" (Jn. 15:5). To "abide" in God, or in His Spirit means to persist in patient expectancy while drawing life directly from Him. For me, that means in contradistinction with drawing from ourselves, from our own strength of flesh. But such "abiding/resting" is neither wasteful idleness nor anxious striving. Too many Christian people, I think, interpret "resting" and "abiding" as meaning passive assent. Another related concept is to "wait upon The Lard". The classic Verse on "waiting" (Is. 40:31) describes a Believer who is anything but inactive, but IS so from a center of peace and calm, from a deep-seated trust in God. "Resting" in Him does not give is permission NOT TO DO (and I believe most of you would agree with me on that point). Rather, it permits us the occasion to sink deeply away from our own fleshly strength and ability, that WE MIGHT RENEW OUR STRENGTH. And why should we need to renew our strength? In order that we might fulfill Dt. 6:5 in the way He intended. That by letting HIM renew our strength with His Spirit and Power (Zech 4:6), we are ABLE to love Him with all of OUR strength and heart . . . just as He had intended.

"Resting", "Abiding" for me means to draw supernatural strength from The Presence of The Lord and walk moment-by-moment in the leading of The Holy Ghost. It has nothing to do with invalidating the authority or perdurability of The Torah.
Evidences of Abiding/Resting in God include:

* Bearing spiritual fruit
Jn. 15:17-11; Jn. 15:16
2 Pt. 1:8-10
Jms. 5:7

* Hearing The Word and keeping It
Lk. 8:15

* Loving God and DOING what He says
Jn. 14:23
1 Jn. 2:6

* Loving others
1 Jn. 2:10-11

* Trusting God and making Him your Refuge
Ps. 91:1-2

* Hating the World's system
1 Jn. 2:15-17

* Remaining steadfast in the faith of The Gospel
1 Jn. 2:24


To the root of the Sabbath Principle is this concept of "REST". But where it seems I differ with a lot of you is that "resting in Him" to me doesn't mean NOT keeping His Commandments as written in His Book. Resting in Him not only doesn't mean NOT keeping His Commandments, to the contrary if we rest in Him we ARE going to keep His Commandments, but it will be from a different source of power.

"Spiritual Works" are not less WORKS, they are just works that are borne on the wings of His Spirit working in and through us. I mean, that is how I understand this concept of "rest".

True "Saving" Faith is not passive assent, rather it must have a deliberate, forward-moving component. This principle continues to hold true through the Believer's subsequent life of sanctification. True faith makes active response a necessity.

"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." -- James 2:26

Active response means obedience to God's Word. Not in a "legalistic" sense of EARNING Salvation, but as an obedience motivated by Love for God. Therefore, true New Testament faith, as I understand the concept, is a working faith that is spontaneously PRO-ACTIVE and PRODUCTIVE.
It produces the Fruits of Holiness!

Jms. 1:21-25

True faith, as I understand the concept, is obedient to God's Commandments (1 Jn. 2:3-7; 1 Jn. 5:1-3; Jn. 14:15; Jn. 14:23-24). Without minimizing the role of mental belief or even heartfelt sentiment, we have to keep in mind that just "believing" something is not what The Bible means when It speaks about having faith. As Apostolic Pentecostals, I think most of us already understand that point. A "faith" that does not issue in works of obedience to God is simply not Bible faith. Someone said to me, Yes, but as Christians OBEDIENCE is not required of us.
To that person I responded, What then are we to do with 1 Peter 1:22 and Hebrews 5:9 which DO require obedience of the Christian?

Still, I understand people's hesitancy. We want to obey God out of a correct motive and steer clear of any "legalism". While it is true that a "faith" that does not issue in works of obedience to God is not Bible faith, it is also true that neither is obedience to Bible Commandments that arise out of mere mechanical sentiment, strict adherence to religious formalism, or ritualistic loyalty to cultural tradition without real conviction and love. I am of the thinking that BOTH the inner as well as the outer elements must be in manifestation for it to be considered true faith as defined by The Bible . . . which is the only kind of faith God accepts (Heb. 11:1, 6; Heb. 10:38).
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Our Sabbath Rest is only in Jesus Christ Iron_Bladder Sunday School 6 05-03-2007 04:28 AM

 
User Infomation
Your Avatar

Latest Threads
- by jfrog
- by Salome
- by Amanah

Help Support AFF!

Advertisement




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:53 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.