History of Tithes in the Church

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Only because there are laws in the OT that command us not to worship idols, beginning in Exodus 20, in the Ten Commandments.

Otherwise, where there is no law, sin is not imputed (Romans 4:15, Romans 5:13).

Essentially, the reason you believe the Holy Spirit would convict you, and correctly so, I might add, is because the Holy Spirit forbad the worshipping of idols at Sinai (Exodus 20:1-6).

Makes one wonder what other laws the Holy Spirit might convict a person of, from out of the Ten Commandments?

Idolatry was a sin before Sinai. If you know the one and only true God, it would be lunacy to worship another. I never needed any written commandments to be convicted of idolatry.

[good samaritan]

“In the same way, the Lord commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel.

Those who proclaim the gospel should have available to them the very same things the Levites had available to them when they travelled to Jerusalem in order to complete their service in the temple:

- Free housing
- Change of garments
- Food to eat
- Funds for travelling

No more, no less.“

Which is the very thing people receive money for.
Housing
Clothing
Food
Transportation

Giving a monetary offering to your local church is in no way a violation to any scripture.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Only because there are laws in the OT that command us not to worship idols, beginning in Exodus 20, in the Ten Commandments.

Otherwise, where there is no law, sin is not imputed (Romans 4:15, Romans 5:13).

Essentially, the reason you believe the Holy Spirit would convict you, and correctly so, I might add, is because the Holy Spirit forbad the worshipping of idols at Sinai (Exodus 20:1-6).

Makes one wonder what other laws the Holy Spirit might convict a person of, from out of the Ten Commandments?

Years ago I wrote a brief essay either here, on nFCF, or the original FCF, titled "Funny, I Don't FEEL Convicted". I can't find it here using the search. But long story short, most people think conviction is some kind of internal feeling, whereas the Bible shows that conviction has nothing at all to do with any feeling but is strictly by the Word. In other words, a person can be convicted completely independently of any of their own sense of wrong doing.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Years ago I wrote a brief essay either here, on nFCF, or the original FCF, titled "Funny, I Don't FEEL Convicted". I can't find it here using the search. But long story short, most people think conviction is some kind of internal feeling, whereas the Bible shows that conviction has nothing at all to do with any feeling but is strictly by the Word. In other words, a person can be convicted completely independently of any of their own sense of wrong doing.

What Word did Adam and Eve read to find out they where naked?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

What Word did Adam and Eve read to find out they where naked?

The Washington Times, obviously.

[coksiw]

Rom 2:14-16 NKJV - (14) for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, (15) who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves [their] thoughts accusing or else excusing [them]) (16) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

Their conscience will still tell them they are doing wrong, and won't be at peace. Their understanding can acknowledge they are doing wrong, or can justify itself as "a necessary evil" or can simply be deceived thinking that they are doing is actually good, or at least not evil. However, they are still guilty, because of their conscience, and their conscience will bear witness against them in the day of judgment, even if they didn't know the law of Moses.

Because of the corruption in the heart of man, namely their understanding and will, God always gave commandments and laws to those that drew near to Him, even before the Law of Moses. The Word of God brings clarity to the understanding that has been darkened because of Sin.


Enoch walked with God: Gen 5:24
Noah walked with God: Gen 6:9
Abraham was called to repent and walk with God: Gen 17:1

Now, all those passages were written by the same author: Moses. What did "walk" mean for him? Let's look at the places where the lifestyle of those that walked with God is explained beside worshiping and praying:

Gen 26:5 NKJV - (5) "because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws."

Well that verse implies that Abraham received commandments from God beside the call to leave his people, even though, the Bible does not tell you exactly what were those.

I'm telling that it is totally reasonable to think that all people that sought God before Moses, soon found out God wanted them to obey commandments, laws, regulations, and statues.

Psa 119:105 NKJV - (105) NUN. Your word [is] a lamp to my feet And a light to my path.
Psa 119:130 NKJV - (130) The entrance of Your words gives light; It gives understanding to the simple.
Psa 19:8 NKJV - (8) The statutes of the LORD [are] right, rejoicing the heart; The commandment of the LORD [is] pure, enlightening the eyes;

Adam had one commandment, and the rest was just part of his nature of not sinning. We all need detailed commandments because of our understanding's tendency to get corrupted. We got knowledge of good and evil, and a tendency to choose evil. That's why you need a lot more than just "love your neighbor as yourself" because quickly you will deceive yourself of what really means to love your neighbor as yourself.

Jer 17:9 NKJV - (9) "The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], And desperately wicked; Who can know it?

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Like mortgage payments, and vehicle loans, and vacations, and etc.? See, since you make the claim Paul means more than just food, where do you draw the line? And just because you draw the line at a shorter distance than some or even most, who's to say another person can't take that line a couple more miles down the road and say, I need these things to sustain my life?

Or, we could just let Paul's words mean exactly what they mean, and "learn to no go beyond that which is written" (1 Corinthians 4:6), so that no one gets puffed up in favor, one over another.

I personally believe that line should be drawn by the local body of each particular church. We have been playing scriptural ping pong all through this thread and rebuttals are endless. There are valid points made about giving from every side, and my conclusion is that giving is between three individuals the giver, the beneficiary, and God. God judges the intents of the heart in both directions. Since there is not any systematic giving instructions in the NT, there is liberty in the method.

Galatians 5:13
For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

For Paul, a herald of the Gospel didn't park himself in a spot on a platform behind a box week after week after week for the rest of his life while everyone came to him to hear whatever he had to say.

Modern pastors do much more than that. Visit the sick, comfort mourning families, evangelize the lost of the city, exhort the local church, to (strive)keep unity in the local body, provide scriptural counseling as needed etc…

No, for Paul, preaching the Gospel meant travelling from place to place (See Romans 15:19-20 for an example).

Paul traveled, but how long did he stay in each place? I don’t know the answer to that. The Holy Ghost led him when and where he should go. I still don’t see that as some foundation for a doctrine of giving. All ministers in the Word are valid recipients.

I think the point is made. Evangelization requires travel. There may be instances where a temporary stop is made for a little time, and someone preaches the Good News there for that time, as the Spirit leads, but not as a permanent home inside of a building, behind a box with a microphone and sound system paid for with tithes.

Evangelism is about reaching the lost. We travel every time we leave our home to do it. The key is as the Spirit leads. I love the city that I live, I was born and raised here and have no plans in leaving. Although, If God wants me to go I’ll go.

Are you an apostle? Am I? Who then gets the right to forbear work, according to Paul and the example of the Twelve?

Depends on our faith. Most people would not quit secular work to do what the apostles did. If God leads someone to do something, then we should obey.

Yes, there is. You can start with 1 Corinthians 16:2 and go from there.



Yes, there is. You can start with 2 Corinthians 9:6-7 and go from there

.

I am talking about systematic giving in the NT. We have liberty.

You cannot differentiate what Jesus said based solely on hidden motives. The word Jesus used means a wage-earner. That's the bottom-line. He didn't speak of motive, only of results: that when the wolves come in, the hireling flees, because he's not the Good Shepherd who lays down His life for the sheep.

Motives are just as important as actions with God. You can do the right thing for the wrong reasons and be lost. You can do the wrong things for the right reasons and still potentially find favor.

Give up your salary, and do everything you do for free, and trust God to make up the difference, with another child on the way, and see if you last. Test your own motives.

I may do that, but regardless God will test all our motives.

1 Corinthians 3:13
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

I know a brother who was taking a salary of $36,000 a year from the church he pastored. He realized his error, repented of it, recanted it publicly, and refused to take a penny from anyone, and God led a local businessman to randomly pick his church out of a phonebook to make a donation of $50,000 to that church, from which, the pastor took not a penny, and God gave him an opportunity to start his own business that allowed him to make over 3X his former salary, while enriching the church so all sorts of needs could be met, like fixing saints' cars, sending missionaries around the world, buying groceries for those in need, and right on down the list, paying people's rent, donating large sums to the injured, and etc.

Awesome testimony!!! I disagree with the reasoning, but God honors faith.

Through that church, I was able to raise over $7,000.00 with a couple of texts and one in person conversation so a lady I worked with who had been crippled in a car accident wouldn't lose her house, could have her utilities paid for, and have all sorts of other needs met, until her husband could go back to work after a knee surgery which had taken place just a couple of days before her accident (black ice in February in WI on the way to work).

Simply because the people of God there got on board with doing things God's way, exactly, precisely, according to only that which is written, and not beyond.

I can give you similar testimonies from churches who preach tithes. God is amazing. God honors faith, and you and I have liberty in our giving. If we sow sparingly we will reap sparingly. I want to sow bountifully.

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Awesome testimony!!! I disagree with the reasoning, but God honors faith.


I can give you similar testimonies from churches who preach tithes. God is amazing. God honors faith, and you and I have liberty in our giving. If we sow sparingly we will reap sparingly. I want to sow bountifully.

I keep hearing this again and again from tithing teachings. Faith in what promise exactly? Could you please clarify? I would like verses please.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

But that's the point of disagreement. One side is saying that salaries were in fact part of the culture but the priests received food and lodging, not a salary. Therefore salaries were excluded intentionally.

By salary I mean income paid in money.

The issue is livelihood as far as I can tell.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by coksiw

I keep hearing this again and again from tithing teachings. Faith in what promise exactly? Could you please clarify? I would like verses please.

Faith in God. If I believe that God desires something from me, my response is an faith motivated action. If there is no action, there is no faith to motivate an action.