Islam vs. Christianity Part 1

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Thomas Trini

Why is we're supposed to read the things which you suggest, but you don't read or respond to what we ask? You merely deflect.

I have never talked with a Muslim that did NOT do that. We used to have them come to our chat room and start flooding us with stuff and when we tried to engage them on what they just pasted they would ignore us and just post more....

[Walks_in_islam]

I answered the question capn.

Originally Posted by Thomas Trini

I think you missed the point. You were asked (I forget who) what has Allah done in your life? The answer you gave could be given by any infidel as well.
So, unless I missed it, what has Allah done for you? What has worshipping Allah done for you. Don't give an answer that could be given by any "infidel," either. It's a fair question, and one that doesn't require you to examine any contradictions within Islam.

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by Thomas Trini

Actually, it's not. You claim to have read the Bible, and claim that we worship a false God. Same thing. I'm not saying you have to research every one of the hundereds, or thousands, of religions. It's a well known fact (by Christians and Muslims) that in Arab countries, they knew of Allah, that he was a pagan god, and the name of the city in which Mohammed lived bears a very striking similarity to the word Quran. Coincidence? Or perhaps convenience?

I have read the bible. Actually, the Kabaa is. Who are you to tell me what the Kabaa is to muslims anyway? Like you know? lol


Hey, I'm not proud of some things done in the name of Christianity, either. We already talked about that as far as the Crusades go. But, unlike you, I can't just dismiss it. For example, atheists get absolutely furious over a guy like Ted Bundy confessings his sins, and now Christians claiming that he's "saved." It drives them nuts. But what about all of those who thought they could buy time, and wait for a deathbed confession at the end, only to get killed too late (and quickly) for such a "conversion?" Christians have shown great patience towards Muslims, and been spat upon in return. We don't kill those Muslims who choose to live in a Judeo-Christian nation like the U.S. The same cannot be said Muslim countries. Right now, the issue of "torturing" Muslims is in the news. But how can it be torture if we subject our own soldiers (e.g. Navy Seals, Green Berets and other members of the "Special Forces") to those kind of "interrogation techniques" in the U.S. military, including "waterboarding?"

You claim to have been a Baptist, yet almost sound more Catholic. Many Christians, such as myself, kneel, close their eyes, and look upward.

You claimed I was a Baptist. I made no such claim at all.


I have been to many services where, in order to get on our knees, we actually turn around (away from the altar) and pray with our hands on the pew (many "altars" are also nothing more than podiums or a platform. hardly an altar). Again, you sound more like a former Catholic than a former Baptist. This is one of the things that actually drives my wife nuts. The fact that MANY CHURCHES DO NOT HAVE ALTARS at all. We merely face the speaker/Pastor who's speaking. We (the majority of us here on this site are Protestant) also don't have the handy, dandy Catholic kneeling pad, either. So we can't really face forward towards the altar. Doing so often requires 2 minutes of shuffling trying to get your legs under the pews if we did face forward. try doing that when you have arthiritis or other problems.

I was speaking only of what I have seen and know. I have never seen an apostolic church of any kind that does not have an alter (and a minister who invites one there). You now deny that this is not the case and that this is the rule, not the exception? The fact is MOST CHURCHES DO HAVE ALTERS. Your lame attempts to claim otherwise will probably bring a grin to your own fellows in addition to me. BTW I was never catholic either.

YOU WERE A BAPTIST? I wonder if this is one of your fairy tales?

That I was a Baptist is certainly one of yours.

I thought you just said we didn't. Actually, I did fly KLM, and they aren't the cheapest seats. But I did hear about a few guys who flew Arab Airways(where everyone, including the pilot and crew smoked all the way there. Try getting a "Non-Smoking" seat on that flight. Some Arabs even brought their "hookas"). But if Islam doesn't teach, or even imply, that God doesn't hear you if you pray in the wrong direction THEN WHY EVEN FACE THE KABAA?. You're talking out of both sides of your mouth again.

You mean you would like to believe I said that. I rather made the stupid analogy between your alters and pagan alters (then called it stupid) then said actually you did pray to god instead of your alter (probably lol who knows). Sounds like you read what you want to read instead of the words in front of you capn

I suggested KLM because I flew KLM from Houston to Dammam in Jan of this year and saw no maps to the Kabaa. Just the map (if you choose that channel) of what country you are flying over and where the plane is at any time. I haver NEVER seen them (maps of the direction of the Kabaa) between the US and here (and btw I always fly through amsterdam albeit not to Bahrain) You are correct, not the cheapest seats. I saw the same things and the same service as when I fly East to Asia on Cathay through Hong Kong or Eva through Taiwan (order of preference You claim you saw this - fine. I fly between there and here and I do not and never have seen it. There is no such thing as "arab airways". At least when you make stuff up please use a REAL airline. OH, and capn? Islam prohibits smoking. Like drinking, smoking is taught to be putting unclean things in your bodies. Perhaps you saw some brown people from arab countries who were smoking and "assumed" they practice Islam. Since that is classic bigotry, it actually makes sense to me that you would assume that. When I read about a pudgy white child molester, I guess I also should "assume" he is christian.

Islam teaches that you should face the Kabaa when you pray. Islam does not teach that God does not hear you when you pray in the wrong direction. I am not talking from anything but stating the true teachings as they were taught to me. Mainly to simply debunk your fake claim that "Islam teaches that God does not hear your prayer if you are facing in the wrong direction." to go with your fake "movie" claim and your fake story about "arab airways"

[Walks_in_islam]

Prax, I KNOW that apostolic churches have an ALTER to pray at and a PLATFORM to preach from. Apostolic preachers, from the platform, invite the congregation down to the alter after every sermon. Don't patronize me or deflect this discussion with nonsense or some stuttered, mumbled claim of otherwise. Admit it and move on. There is "apostolic U-tube" on this if you need to see it. "Alter services". Give me a break. Now you are telling me something I know and have seen and have personally witnessed actually does not exist and does not happen. You have alters and you go down and you kneel there and you pray there. And you know what? It IS the same thing and it SYMBOLIZES the same thing. Your extrapolation of "intent" onto total strangers can only be your opinion and nothing more.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

BTW it's not an "alter". It's a platform. We neither face IT or bow to IT with the intent that Muslims have in facing Mecca. They intentionally face it, no matter where it is at.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

Prax, I KNOW that apostolic churches have an ALTER to pray at and a PLATFORM to preach from. Apostolic preachers, from the platform, invite the congregation down to the alter after every sermon. Don't patronize me or deflect this discussion with nonsense or some stuttered, mumbled claim of otherwise. Admit it and move on. There is "apostolic U-tube" on this if you need to see it. "Alter services". Give me a break. Now you are telling me something I know and have seen and have personally witnessed actually does not exist and does not happen. You have alters and you go down and you kneel there and you pray there. And you know what? It IS the same thing and it SYMBOLIZES the same thing. Your extrapolation of "intent" onto total strangers can only be your opinion and nothing more.

To pray AT. The word "alter" is more symbolic. Where ever we pray AT we are praying AT an alter. That is what you don't understand. We are not praying ON an alter or towards an alter or to an alter.

It ISN'T the same thing, like an alter someone in a Roman Catholic church faces that has a statue of Mary on it. An ALTER to some is an object of worship. An ALTER to others is simply a place TO worship. Thus, we are not "facing" a platform like pagans face Mecca. We don't revere or idolize a rock that fell from the sky and kiss and caress an ancient alter of pagan worship that is meant to symbolize a vagina.

[Thomas Trini]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

I have read the bible. Actually, the Kabaa is. Who are you to tell me what the Kabaa is to muslims anyway? Like you know? lol.

Then by your definition, you cannot ask, or know about Christians. Oh, I forgot. You're now an apostate Christian. Well, by using your Muslim standards, according to the Koran, we should kill you since you're an apostate. You see, that's the difference between Christianity and Islam. The irony is dripping with sarcasm. The Pope says Islam is a violent religion. So how do Muslims react? Not peacefully, but rather with violence. Some other guy draws cartoons of Mohammed being a violent prophet, with a bomb on/in his turban. How do Muslims react? Again, not peacefully. You claim that those who do such things are not true Muslims. Where are the counter protests against those who commit such things.

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

You claimed I was a Baptist. I made no such claim at all.

Is this going to be like the claim of yours that Muslims have no aversion to toilet paper, only to have to go back and find the post. Then, you'll create some weird excuse as to why you said different things at different times?

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

I was speaking only of what I have seen and know. I have never seen an apostolic church of any kind that does not have an alter (and a minister who invites one there). You now deny that this is not the case and that this is the rule, not the exception? The fact is MOST CHURCHES DO HAVE ALTERS. Your lame attempts to claim otherwise will probably bring a grin to your own fellows in addition to me. BTW I was never Catholic either.

You bounced around so much on this one that I'm not sure if you're speaking about the rule or the exception. But to answer it, merely calling something an "altar call" when you're actually doing nothing more than walking up to a platform or a podium does not make it an altar. The altars, such as those in the Catholic or Lutheran churches are far more elaborate than the podiums and pedestals of many Protestants. Like I said, it drives my wife nuts that many of the churches we attend (or have even cleaned) do not have an altar within the church. You know. Those big marble platforms that take a forklift to move, and IHS carved into it. Something to say "you're in church." Many churches are formerly office spaces.

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

You mean you would like to believe I said that. I rather made the stupid analogy between your alters and pagan alters (then called it stupid) then said actually you did pray to god instead of your alter (probably lol who knows). Sounds like you read what you want to read instead of the words in front of you capn

I suggested KLM because I flew KLM from Houston to Dammam in Jan of this year and saw no maps to the Kabaa. Just the map (if you choose that channel) of what country you are flying over and where the plane is at any time.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are you speaking of the airline's magazines that show the routes? That's not what I was speaking of. This was a board/the airline's "movie screen" that was continuously updated showing where Mecca was, the position of the plane (including its direction so you know which side to face).

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

I haver NEVER seen them (maps of the direction of the Kabaa) between the US and here (and btw I always fly through amsterdam albeit not to Bahrain) You are correct, not the cheapest seats. I saw the same things and the same service as when I fly East to Asia on Cathay through Hong Kong or Eva through Taiwan (order of preference You claim you saw this - fine. I fly between there and here and I do not and never have seen it.

I guess this is just a service when you're near the Middle East. It is not offered to U.S. flights. Just international ones. Thankfully, this is still a Christian country.

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

There is no such thing as "arab airways". At least when you make stuff up please use a REAL airline.

see http://www.timetableimages.com/ttimages/je.htm or http://crwflags.com/fotw/flags/jo$aaj.html for two examples that I'm not making it up. It was even featured in the magazine "Airliner" a few years ago, and had pictures of the stewardesses wearing those funny hats (whatever they are).

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

OH, and capn? Islam prohibits smoking. Like drinking, smoking is taught to be putting unclean things in your bodies. Perhaps you saw some brown people from arab countries who were smoking and "assumed" they practice Islam. Since that is classic bigotry, it actually makes sense to me that you would assume that. When I read about a pudgy white child molester, I guess I also should "assume" he is christian.

Then if Islam prohibits smoking, many of my Muslim co-workers and former co-workers are going to go to Hell for it (or something like that) Of course, these are the same Muslim co-workers who need a compass in order to find the Kabaaa, because they're praying in the wrong direction (unless you circle the earth a few more times). So maybe they're not really Muslims, but imposters.
Additionally, virtually everyone on this forum would not accept Catholics Preists as Christians, regardless of whether or not they "diddle" little boys. Catholics believe much the same about Protestants, since we reject the idea of Peter being "The First Pope."

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

Islam teaches that you should face the Kabaa when you pray. Islam does not teach that God does not hear you when you pray in the wrong direction. I am not talking from anything but stating the true teachings as they were taught to me. Mainly to simply debunk your fake claim that "Islam teaches that God does not hear your prayer if you are facing in the wrong direction." to go with your fake "movie" claim and your fake story about "arab airways"

Perhaps the Imams have an internet "blackout" against you checking into such things as to whether there's really an "Arab Airways" or not. Maybe you're blocked from some of the sites by your wonderful Muslims "Preists." Great religion, huh?

[Thomas Trini]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

I answered the question capn.

So, in other words, Allah has done nothing in your life that couldn't be said of an infidel. As Spock would say: "Fascinating!"

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Thomas Trini

Then if Islam prohibits smoking, many of my Muslim co-workers and former co-workers are going to go to Hell for it. Of course, these are the same Muslim co-workers who need a compass in order to find the Kabaa, because they're praying in the wrong direction (unless you circle the earth a few more times). So maybe they're not really Muslims, but imposters.

I'm sorry, but that is hilarious!!!

[Walks_in_islam]

You (PressingOn) are right. And, since it entertains you (or appears to) you are well within your rights, if you have a Muslim co-worker, who also smokes, to innocently say "I was told that Islam prohibits smoking. Is that true?" and certainly entertain yourself by watching and listening to him or her squirm out of it. It is the same shifty eyed squirm that your fellow christians do when you bring up the requirement to tithe, or the requirement for women to cover their hair in church, or other less palatable teachings of christianity. Indeed the same shifty eyed squirm that I detected after the introduction of the subject of alters (laughing). You do it, have it, teach it, man up and say "yes it's there but I do not follow that teaching". Lots of "christians" do bad things all week then show up in shiny new clothes and freshly applied hairspray on sunday morning. I actually, like muslim smokers, find that sad and not hilarious at all. Since things you are supposed to do are clearly spelled out I actually cannot imagine that during final judgement these people will be or have the right to be stunned or surprised.

As to the compass, I have seen one - it is in units of degrees and based on your location it has a red arrow that will indicate the (generally closest) direction of the Kabaa. I, and most I know, personally take the practical approach that specifies that if you do not know, just pray anyway, because I do not generally have the time to waste to do the research. If I know the direction I will face the direction. If I do not, I will take my best guess and not waste the energy to worry about it.

You (capn TP) obviously do not travel much. One of the offered channels on intl flights, in addition to movies or seinfield or news or the others, is a map. Generally a portion of the world map. It shows the country (you can zoom in on most flights) you are over with the nearest reference cities. For instance, between Amsterdam and Dammam (which is 30 minutes from Bahrain) As you fly over the middle east it will show where the plane is located relative to different cities. For instance, the map will show Tel Aviv, Damascus, Amman relative to where you are located in that part of the world. It drives my wife crazy because that's the channel I always keep it on just out of idle curiosity. Try not to confuse the magazines with the TV screen. I have not been on a smoking flight since the early 70's so have no comment on "smoking muslims on airplanes" but I suppose it can happen. I listed my preferred airlines in order of preference. Short flights on Eithad (Doha bases) also prohibit smoking. Perhaps Eithad qualifies as "arab air" since the people who run the company have brown skin.

As to killing "apostate christians" you can certainly, if that is what tingles you below the belt, start right there at home and work your way around the world. It's your idea. Good luck. It probably is not profitable. So you probably will just wiggle your gums about it then forget the idea.

"preference for washing" is not "aversion to toilet paper". "preference for washing" became "aversion to toilet paper" only in your own opinionated mind. Certainly arabs, in their own countries, would not have toilet paper in their own bathrooms if they have "aversion" to it. Since everything I have seen indicates that they do, then YOUR concept of "aversion" becomes bunk. It is not your first bunk concept.

I was pretty clear and tried to use small words and simple speech on that alter issue, predicting the shifty-eyed response (see similar approach YOU can use on "muslims and smoking") Your church have an alter or not? Most churches have an alter or not? Is it called an alter? You probably do, it probably has, and it probably is if you go to an apostolic church. Interesting it's still an "alter call" even if the church does NOT have a built, installed alter. Probably just a figure of speech. Remember it was I and not you who noted the symbolism of the alter anyway. I now feel validated.

No matter where you face, alter or otherwise, if you pray to God you pray to God. I am just parroting your point since you "bow to the heavens" to pray or turn your back to the alter and pray towards the pew or (since I brought up the alter thing) now "pray anyhow or anywhere or in any method that does not involve the alter". THAT, is hilarious.

[rava61]

Have you taken a close look at the Apostolics, who cannot get along with anyone? In Bloomington where I attend a church, there are aprox. 50+ Apostolic churches, and none of them can get along; and Heaven forbid that there be any fellowship among them.

I guess they think that if the Pastors speak to each other in public from across the street, then all is well...........wow, what a delusion.