Demons and the believer

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Esaias

King Hiram was at least half Israelite -

1 Kings 7:13-14 And king Solomon sent and fetched Hiram out of Tyre. (14) He was a widow's son of the tribe of Naphtali, and his father was a man of Tyre, a worker in brass: and he was filled with wisdom, and understanding, and cunning to work all works in brass. And he came to king Solomon, and wrought all his work.

Rereading this, it actually seems to be saying Hiram was of the tribe of Naphtali, his mother a widow, possibly remarried to a Tyrian...

So how did an Israelite become king of Tyre? Appears Tyre was run by an Israelite dynasty, which is why Ezekiel seems to refer to the ruler of Tyre as if he were circumcised?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Rereading this, it actually seems to be saying Hiram was of the tribe of Naphtali, his mother a widow, possibly remarried to a Tyrian...

So how did an Israelite become king of Tyre? Appears Tyre was run by an Israelite dynasty, which is why Ezekiel seems to refer to the ruler of Tyre as if he were circumcised?

Yes, because if he still was a Phoenician pagan he would already die the death of the uncircumcised. Cherubs are creatures, which have six wings, or the body of animals, or heads of animals. The whole Ezekiel 28:1-19 gets convoluted as they skip everything referring to the actual king, to dive into everything which meets with their agenda. If Satan was a worship leader, and the most beautiful angel, we would see the story somewhere in Genesis, or the other books of Torah. Yet, that isn't the case. Yet, still waiting for someone to show how the Bible says that Satan was once the most beautiful angel who was the chief worship leader.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Rereading this, it actually seems to be saying Hiram was of the tribe of Naphtali, his mother a widow, possibly remarried to a Tyrian...

So how did an Israelite become king of Tyre? Appears Tyre was run by an Israelite dynasty, which is why Ezekiel seems to refer to the ruler of Tyre as if he were circumcised?

1 Kings 7:13-14

He was a widow's son of the tribe of Naphtali, and his father was a man of Tyre, a worker in brass: and he was filled with wisdom, and understanding, and cunning to work all works in brass. And he came to king Solomon, and wrought all his work.

Which indicates that Hiram was of Naphtali through his father, and his mother was of the daughters of Dan.

Now I personally have a pretty low opinion of the works of Josephus. But here is something he wrote concerning Hiram king of Tyre. But it is interesting what he wrote concerning hiram's father. Also according to (Rabbi Shlomo Yitzchaki) Rashi, his mother was from Dan and his father was from Naphtali.

[76] Now Solomon sent for an artificer out of Tyre, whose name was Hiram; he was by birth of the tribe of Naphtali, on the mother's side, (for she was of that tribe,) but his father was Ur, of the stock of the Israelites. This man was skillful in all sorts of work; but his chief skill lay in working in gold, and silver, and brass; by whom were made all the mechanical works about the temple, according to the will of Solomon. Moreover, this Hiram made two [hollow] pillars, whose outsides were of brass, and the thickness of the brass was four fingers' breadth, and the height of the pillars was eighteen cubits and their circumference twelve cubits; but there was cast with each of their chapiters lily-work that stood upon the pillar, and it was elevated five cubits, round about which there was net-work interwoven with small palms, made of brass, and covered the lily-work. To this also were hung two hundred pomegranates, in two rows. The one of these pillars he set at the entrance of the porch on the right hand, and called it Jachin 1 and the other at the left hand, and called it Booz.




Another thing which should be pointed out is the reason why it is spoken that he was covered in precious stones, silver, and gold. Because that it what he did. He was a fabricator of gold, jewels, silver, brass, woodworking.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Esaias

See? This all ties back into the KINGDOM OF GOD, which is clearly and undeniably an issue of JURISDICTION and AUTHORITY. The GOSPEL of "the Kingdom of God".

THIS is why the world hates it. The world don't care where you think you are going when you die. They just want to make sure you SUBMIT TO THEIR AUTHORITY in the HERE AND NOW. But Christ has all authority, here and now and forever more. THAT is what creates the conflict. The secular powers that be see real Gospel Christianity as a threat to their power and control.

Interesting how the powers that be don't really see much of modern Christendom as any kind of threat... Might be because modern Christendom has lost sight of what the Gospel is really all about?

An example of APOSTOLIC "spiritual warfare":

Acts 4:15-31 But when they had commanded them to go aside out of the council, they conferred among themselves, (16) Saying, What shall we do to these men? for that indeed a notable miracle hath been done by them is manifest to all them that dwell in Jerusalem; and we cannot deny it. (17) But that it spread no further among the people, let us straitly threaten them, that they speak henceforth to no man in this name. (18) And they called them, and commanded them not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus. (19) But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye. (20) For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard. (21) So when they had further threatened them, they let them go, finding nothing how they might punish them, because of the people: for all men glorified God for that which was done. (22) For the man was above forty years old, on whom this miracle of healing was shewed. (23) And being let go, they went to their own company, and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said unto them. (24) And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is: (25) Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things? (26) The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. (27) For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, (28) For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done. (29) And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word, (30) By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus. (31) And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.

Apostolic ministers were in the Temple preaching Jesus. The secular powers (civil and religious) didn't like that, they established it as government policy to stop the spread of the Gospel among the people. So, the church had a prayer meeting.

They did NOT pray against demonic spirits, they did NOT "bind the territorial spirits controlling Jerusalem", they did NOT "loose the power of God", they did NOT sneak to the Temple at night and anoint it with holy (magic?) oil, they did NOT "bind the devils whispering in the officials' ears", they did NOT say "we know it is evil spirits doing this to stop the Gospel, not flesh and blood, we love these guys, we want to invite them over for dinner, and meanwhile we BIND THE DEMONS AND FALLEN ANGELS OVER THIS CITY and we RELEASE these officials from being bound to them!"

No, here's what they did: The preachers made up their minds and made it public that they would NOT cease preaching the Gospel no matter what. They openly declared to the secular powers that obedience to God trumps any pretended authority they had to oppose the good news of Christ's Kingdom. They had a prayer meeting, and after establishing the purpose of the prayer meeting (the government's opposition to the apostolic preaching in public), they got in one mind and one accord, and prayed thus:

1. They identified God as the Creator and Almighty.
2. They identified the WORD OF GOD that stated the exact situation they were facing.
3. They identified the correct apostolic interpretation and application of that Word of God to their immediate situation.
4. They petitioned God to grant ALL His people BOLDNESS TO KEEP ON PREACHING.
5. They petitioned God to confirm the preaching of the Name of JESUS with signs following.

The result? The place was shaken, they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they preached the Word with boldness. Signs and wonders took place (including two lying hypocrites being struck dead in church). And the preaching went forward:

Acts 5:11-14 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things. (12) And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch. (13) And of the rest durst no man join himself to them: but the people magnified them. (14) And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.)

Oh, and let's not fancy that all was well. no, this is genuine spiritual warfare. As a result of this attack by the church on contested ground (the Temple), here's the enemy's response:

Acts 5:17-18 Then the high priest rose up, and all they that were with him, (which is the sect of the Sadducees,) and were filled with indignation, (18) And laid their hands on the apostles, and put them in the common prison.

Yes, real spiritual warfare isn't LARPing from Momma's basement. It oftentimes includes GOING TO JAIL. The church wages war by means of the Divine weapons given to her, and the enemy responds with physical force, imprisonment, and even murders. But what happened?

Acts 5:19-21 But the angel of the Lord by night opened the prison doors, and brought them forth, and said, (20) Go, stand and speak in the temple to the people all the words of this life. (21) And when they heard that, they entered into the temple early in the morning, and taught. But the high priest came, and they that were with him, and called the council together, and all the senate of the children of Israel, and sent to the prison to have them brought.

A Divine intervention occurs, a jailbreak. (How many of you would support a preacher who went to jail for public preaching - "creating a public nuisance and causing a disturbance/disorderly conduct" - and who then BROKE OUT OF JAIL and went straight back to the very area contested in the first place?) The apostles get loose from the jail (now they are fugitives) and show right back up in the enemy's FACE preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom.

The powers that be just couldn't understand what was going on. But they recognised that things were getting out of (their) control. They arrest the preachers but do it carefully because so many people were being positively affected by the preaching that heavy-handed tactics on the part of the police would possibly spark a major riot:

Acts 5:22-26 But when the officers came, and found them not in the prison, they returned, and told, (23) Saying, The prison truly found we shut with all safety, and the keepers standing without before the doors: but when we had opened, we found no man within. (24) Now when the high priest and the captain of the temple and the chief priests heard these things, they doubted of them whereunto this would grow. (25) Then came one and told them, saying, Behold, the men whom ye put in prison are standing in the temple, and teaching the people. (26) Then went the captain with the officers, and brought them without violence: for they feared the people, lest they should have been stoned.

The powers that be were AFRAID. Are they afraid of today's apostolic church? If not, why not?

The end result (at least of that go-round)? The powers that be had to regroup and rethink, and decided they couldn't do much so let it go, hoping it would fizzle on its own. Which of course, it didn't.

[Esaias]

Acts 13:6-12 And when they had gone through the isle unto Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew, whose name was Barjesus: (7) Which was with the deputy of the country, Sergius Paulus, a prudent man; who called for Barnabas and Saul, and desired to hear the word of God. (8) But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith. (9) Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him, (10) And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord? (11) And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand. (12) Then the deputy, when he saw what was done, believed, being astonished at the doctrine of the Lord.

Why didn't Paul cast any demons out of this guy? He was a "false prophet", a SORCEROR for crying out loud! Yet, he doesn't do any demon-casting. Instead, he (being led by the Spirit) calls the guy a child of the devil and an enemy of righteousness. And then pronounces a temporal curse of blindness upon him, which occurs immediately.

No casting out demons. Didn't even bother to witness to the guy to get him saved after blinding him. Just called him a child of the devil and an enemy of righteousness and a perverter of the ways of the Lord, blinded him by Holy Ghost power, and off he went.

Oh, and the DEPUTY, a ruling government official, was at the center of all this activity. Because of all the hubbub created by the apostolic preaching, a magistrate gets wind of it and wants to inquire of the preachers what they are preaching about. His little Grima Wormtongue companion and advisor gets miraculously cursed, and the deputy is astonished. And becomes a believer.

So now a civil magistrate is a Christian. What do you think? Was there persecution against the Gospel on Paphos? Or do you think the Christian magistrate saw to it that the church was protected and the Gospel was published? At least as long as the now Christian deputy could last?

THAT'S "spiritual warfare". Is that stuff happening now? Are we having that kind of effect on the principalities and powers of our day?

Or are we inviting them to our meetings in Louisiana to sit and smile so we can take our photo with them and say "They're looking our way!" Meanwhile nothing changes?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Liberal translation? One was the Peshitta Syrian translation in English, and the other was the LXX. The LXX was used by Jesus Christ and His followers in the first century A.D.. The Hebrew you allude to being conservative is 600 A.D. 1,000 years after the LXX.

Ah, I see what you're saying, I misunderstood you.

Ezekiel 28:10 Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord God.

Satan was circumcised? Cherubs are circumcised? If yes, explain why?

First, I'd like to explain that I don't believe that the text is primarily about Satan. However, I do believe that Ezekiel was equating this earthly king to Satan, who possessed him. So, just as Jesus is both man and God, this king was both man and Satan. As a result, the statements made, though combined and targeted at an earthly king, speak to either the king or the spirit of Satan abiding within him. And they shift back and forth. For example, while the earthly kind did corrupt the nations through his commerce, he was never in Eden, though the spirit of Satan in him clearly was.

Second, I'd like to look at the Masoretic text and the LXX together again and consider something more outside of the box. You might disagree, but I hope to help you understand where I'm coming from better at the very least. The LXX reads:

Ezekiel 28:14 (LXX)
28:14 From the day that thou wast created thou [wast] with the cherub: I set thee on the holy mount of God; thou wast in the midst of the stones of fire.

… and then there is the Masoretic text:

Ezekiel 28:14 (Masoretic text)
28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

To the casual reader, one might say these texts disagree. They might argue that in the LXX the king was created "with the cherub", while the Masoretic text states that this king was the cherub, "Thou art the anointed cherub".

But I believe God preserves His Word. The texts must therefore be examined in a manner to find an answer that causes them to agree.

Let's say that the king of Tyre was conceived, this evil spirit of Satan was with the king. However, at some point in his life, Satan possesses him. Now, the king of Tyre could be said to have been both "with" the "cherub" from his birth, but was also the "cherub" after having been possessed.

If this is true, the translators of the texts are just translating the text from different perspective. As a result, both are expressing the truth regarding the king's relationship with this "cherub" from different perspectives. In one sense, he was with the cherub, in another sense, he was the cherub.

I hope this helps with understanding how I look at it. The apparent contradiction between the LXX and the Masoretic text is no real contradiction at all in my mind, and the fact that the king was said to be the cherub he was created with remains.

And so, from the text, we can not only see elements relating to the history of this earthly king, but also elements of the history of the demon prince within him, Satan.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Yes, because if he still was a Phoenician pagan he would already die the death of the uncircumcised. Cherubs are creatures, which have six wings, or the body of animals, or heads of animals. The whole Ezekiel 28:1-19 gets convoluted as they skip everything referring to the actual king, to dive into everything which meets with their agenda. If Satan was a worship leader, and the most beautiful angel, we would see the story somewhere in Genesis, or the other books of Torah. Yet, that isn't the case. Yet, still waiting for someone to show how the Bible says that Satan was once the most beautiful angel who was the chief worship leader.

I disagree with the emboldened. God can reveal the secret things of eternity in any manner he chooses. In addition, God can choose to reveal something in only one place of Scripture, and it is no less valid just because it isn't mentioned anywhere else. Remember, the OT is an incomplete revelation. It is often delivered from the perspectives of the human prophets who prophesied for the LORD. And unless the LORD revealed something specific to them regarding spiritual realities, the prophets would have a vague, or non-existent, expression of that truth. Now, with the NT we have the Holy Spirit being very active, revealing more truth, and we have Jesus, God Himself in flesh, revealing even yet more and greater truth.

Therefore, the entire OT could be ignorant of Satan's existence... and yet Christ reveal Satan as a more personal being. We have to embrace the greater light of the NT and interpret the OT in this light. Not look at the vagueness of the OT, and impose that vagueness on the NT.

Those are just some of my thoughts on this. If you disagree, no biggie. I'm not going to say you're not saved or that you don't know God or anything. We're all down here working together to sort a lot of this out. And so, as iron sharpens iron, so to do we add to one another in ways we're often never aware of.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Esaias

THAT'S "spiritual warfare". Is that stuff happening now? Are we having that kind of effect on the principalities and powers of our day?

I think we are having an impact on our world because Apostolics are preaching the gospel and people are being saved. Apostolic missionaries are preaching the gospel, building churches and orphanages around the world.

We have lost the culture wars though. We have lost the battle with our govt, workplaces and schools.

A group of parents planned a silent rally outside an Oklahoma school Tuesday morning on a behalf of a transgender 12-year-old who has been subjected to threats of violence.

The school is closed through Wednesday in response to those threats.

The student, identified simply as “Maddie” to protect her identity, has identified as a girl at school for over two years now, but has typically used the staff bathroom to avoid being harassed. However, when she arrived at the newly-reopened middle school building this year, she was reportedly unable to find the staff bathroom and used the girls’ room instead.

Maddie’s mother, Brandy Rose, later clarified to CBS affiliate KXII that Maddie had only used the girls’ room “one single time.”

A parent in the district subsequently found out about that bathroom visit and posted threatening comments in a private Facebook group called “Achille ISD Parent Group,” referring to Maddie in transphobic terms.

“The transgender is already using the girls bathroom,” Jamie Crenshaw wrote before misgendering Maddie several times. “We have been told how the school has gone above and beyond to make sure he [sic] has his [sic] own restroom yet he [sic] is still using the girls.”

Other members of the group piled on with similarly transphobic language. “How old is this thing?” one user asked.

“This thing !!!! I love it,” another person replied. “Got a name 4 it now. Perfect name.”

“This is terrible !!” one user wrote. “Y’all have great kids and a lil half baked maggot is causing them probs. We feel 4 y’all.”

https://thinkprogress.org/oklahoma-s...-2a8a9db4264e/

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

An example of APOSTOLIC "spiritual warfare":

Esaias, you have posted some very good stuff with regards to spiritual warfare. And I agree with 90% of what you're saying.

However, I'd like to point out to you that you're only giving an example of one type of spiritual warfare.

Here are a few examples of another kind of Spiritual warfare...

Acts 5:12-16 King James Version (KJV)
12 And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.
13 And of the rest durst no man join himself to them: but the people magnified them.
14 And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.)
15 Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them.
16 There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.

Acts 8:5-8 King James Version (KJV)
5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.
6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.
7 For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed.
8 And there was great joy in that city.

Acts 16:16-18
16 And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:
17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.
18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.

Acts 19:11-12 King James Version (KJV)
11 And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul:
12 So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.

I believe that your view is incomplete. You stated:

They did NOT pray against demonic spirits, they did NOT "bind the territorial spirits controlling Jerusalem", they did NOT "loose the power of God", they did NOT sneak to the Temple at night and anoint it with holy (magic?) oil, they did NOT "bind the devils whispering in the officials' ears", they did NOT say "we know it is evil spirits doing this to stop the Gospel, not flesh and blood, we love these guys, we want to invite them over for dinner, and meanwhile we BIND THE DEMONS AND FALLEN ANGELS OVER THIS CITY and we RELEASE these officials from being bound to them!"

No, here's what they did: The preachers made up their minds and made it public that they would NOT cease preaching the Gospel no matter what. They openly declared to the secular powers that obedience to God trumps any pretended authority they had to oppose the good news of Christ's Kingdom.

I contend that based on the Scriptures, the Apostles clearly did BOTH. You asked some important questions, and I believe the deficiencies of your view provide the answers...

The powers that be were AFRAID. Are they afraid of today's apostolic church? If not, why not?

… and...

Is that stuff happening now? Are we having that kind of effect on the principalities and powers of our day?

Or are we inviting them to our meetings in Louisiana to sit and smile so we can take our photo with them and say "They're looking our way!" Meanwhile nothing changes?

The answer to me is quite clear. The church is paralyzed by a false dichotomy (yet again) instead of being of one mind and in one accord in our warfare. Satan knows that if our efforts or divided, the Kingdom of God will not advance. If we have half the church saying "Casting out spirits isn't spiritual warfare, preaching the Gospel and effecting the principalities and powers of our day is spiritual warfare!", and the other half of the church saying, "We're not called to challenge the culture, we're called to cast out evil spirits, those vexed with demons, and to set at liberty those who are oppressed of the devil!"... you have the message divided... and so you have the church divided. And a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand.

You see, the Apostolic church of scripture cast out evil spirits routinely. It was even specifically mentioned as a sign that would follow those who believe in Mark's account of the Great Commission (Mark 16:15-18). Take this into consideration...

2 Timothy 2:25-26 King James Version (KJV)
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

There are those in this world who are their own worse enemy. And these poor souls are often double minded and taken captive by the devil at will. They have no power to resist the spiritual attacks, influences, or possession. And if the entire church isn't casting these things out, we are not demonstrating the focus or power necessary to dethrone the spirits that are influencing the leaders of our day. So, they continue to be taken captive at Satan's will. And if the church isn't united on affecting the culture for Christ, then demonic spirits will continue to take residence in our leaders, and in the lives of the unsaved people of our communities.

The very questions you ask beg that we acknowledge BOTH sides to spiritual warfare. Because those who feel called to combat either front in this spiritual war will never gain the power to be successful on the front they're called to unless we're unified in vision and focus. If I mock your position, I weaken our advancement. If you mock my position, you weaken our advancement.

The only way to actually advance on all fronts is to acknowledge the whole of this warfare. We cannot teach that we are to preach the Gospel and not cast out devils. Nor can we spend all day casting out devils, and not preaching the Gospel. Both are a fundamental part of the Great Commission.

Mark 16:15-18 King James Version (KJV)
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

To be effective, we must preach and teach the whole Gospel. Else we're failing the Great Commission.


So it isn't an "either/or" paradigm. It's a "yes/and" paradigm.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Amanah

I think we are having an impact on our world because Apostolics are preaching the gospel and people are being saved. Apostolic missionaries are preaching the gospel, building churches and orphanages around the world.

We have lost the culture wars though. We have lost the battle with our govt, workplaces and schools.




https://thinkprogress.org/oklahoma-s...-2a8a9db4264e/

I wouldn't believe it if thinkprogress said the sky was blue. That being said, you are right, we are losing the culture war. All is not lost, however. We have been through similar times, there is nothing new under the sun. We didn't wind up here over night, and we shouldn't expect victory over night, either.

But the day is approaching, and God shall prevail.