Rejoicing In the Sabbath:

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

For Aquila to consider...

So... how many verses must I sift through to find God's commandments? How many are there? How can I be sure to keep a given statement in context? Who's interpretation of them do we follow? It's like looking for needles in a hay stack. God isn't the author of confusion.

Can you list ALL of the commandments binding upon Christians??? You'll start a virtual war between denominations and those here with various denominational backgrounds. lol

But... the Ten Commandments are perfect and simple. They are moral in nature and not legalistic with outward ceremonial show. For almost 2,000 years the Ten Commandments were the foundation of morality in Western Culture. We've thrown them out of our schools, our court houses, and even the churches. Who in their right minds would disagree that the following Ten Commandments do not only stand as a perfectly moral and holy guide to live by... but that they also do not reveal the very nature of God's own holiness?

The Ten Commandments

I
Thou shalt have no other gods before Me
II
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image
III
Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord
thy God in vain, for the Lord will not
hold him guiltless that taketh His name in vain
IV
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy
V
Honor thy father and thy mother,
that thy days may be long upon the land
which the Lord thy God giveth thee
VI
Thou shalt not murder
VII
Thou shalt not commit adultery
VIII
Thou shalt not steal
IX
Thou shalt not bear false witness
against thy neighbor
X
Thou shalt not covet

Frankly, it's a beautiful Law of Liberty. Why? Because no man can place an arbitrary human interpretation upon you (legalism). I can agree with the Psalmist:

Psalm 1:1-6
1Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
2But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
3And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.
4The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
5Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
6For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

Selah.

[johnny44]

Originally Posted by Aquila

No.

Where does the Fourth Commandment stipulate that you can't pick corn? lol

There were many stipulations in the Law of Moses regarding the Sabbath. For example, stipulations regarding lighting a fire and/or harvesting on the Sabbath:

Exodus 35:3
3 "You shall not kindle a fire in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day"

Exodus 34:21
21 “Six days you shall labor, but on the seventh day you shall rest; even during the plowing season and harvest you must rest.

The disciples may have violated the ceremonial stipulations in the Law of Moses regarding its regulations on the Sabbath, but they didn't violate the Law of God. That was Christ's point. Jesus points out that even David violated the Law of Moses concerning the shewbread:

Matthew 12:1-8 (ESV)
1 At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry, and they began to pluck heads of grain and to eat. 2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said to him, “Look, your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath.” 3 He said to them, “Have you not read what David did when he was hungry, and those who were with him: 4 how he entered the house of God and ate the bread of the Presence, which it was not lawful for him to eat nor for those who were with him, but only for the priests? 5 Or have you not read in the Law how on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath and are guiltless? 6 I tell you, something greater than the temple is here. 7 And if you had known what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the guiltless. 8 For the Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath.”

There is nothing in the Fourth Commandment about gleaning or doing what you must to eat and survive. Review it:

Exodus 20:8-11
{20:8}Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. {20:9} Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: {20:10} But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates: {20:11} For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is,] and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

You see, the Law of Moses was a body of cultural and ceremonial laws for the nation of Israel BASED on the Fourth Commandment. Jesus was preaching the Kingdom of God. All that is asked of us on the Sabbath according to the Law of God is:

-To remember the Sabbath
-Keep the day holy (set aside for sacred use)
-The entire household should rest

That's all.

The Law of Moses and the ordinances that were against us (with its sacrificial system) are nailed to the cross. Today we are to turn to Christ and walk in the Spirit. And the Spirit guides us in relation to God's Law. God's Law isn't abolished. It's simply that we need not keep the Law of God to be saved...we keep the Law of God because we are saved.

1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Also note the following:

1 John 3:22
And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

Interestingly, note how those who are faithful to the Lord are described in the book of Revelation:

Revelation 22:14
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Yes, even as a Christian, there are commandments to obey. But again, we don't obey them to be saved... we obey them because we are saved.

So what you are saying is that verse 8 is God's law and verse 9 and 10 is Moses law ?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by johnny44

So what you are saying is that verse 8 is God's law and verse 9 and 10 is Moses law ?

No. Here's what I'm saying...

Define "work"? According to this commandment alone... Is it unlawful to glean for one's basic necessity for food on the Sabbath? Is it unlawful to pull one's sheep from a ditch on the Sabbath? Is it unlawful to heal on the Sabbath?

No.

Jesus addressed these things. Now if someone wanted to work a double they didn't have to work to pay for a large screen plasma television, didn't stop to rest or take any devotional time, and didn't spend time with their family while working hard on their quest for a plasma television.... I'd say they've trashed the Sabbath.

But going to the grocery to feed yourself or our family? Nope.

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by Aquila

So... how many verses must I sift through to find God's commandments? How many are there? How can I be sure to keep a given statement in context? Who's interpretation of them do we follow? It's like looking for needles in a hay stack. God isn't the author of confusion.

Can you list ALL of the commandments binding upon Christians??? You'll start a virtual war between denominations and those here with various denominational backgrounds. lol

1 John 3
22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

The commands are listed here: Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (which is essentially loving God). Love each other.

Originally Posted by Aquila

But... the Ten Commandments are perfect and simple. They are moral in nature and not legalistic with outward ceremonial show. For almost 2,000 years the Ten Commandments were the foundation of morality in Western Culture. We've thrown them out of our schools, our court houses, and even the church. Who in their right minds would disagree that the following Ten Commandments do not only stand as a perfectly moral and holy guide to live by... but that they also do not reveal the very nature of God's own holiness?

The Ten Commandments

I
Thou shalt have no other gods before Me
II
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image
III
Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord
thy God in vain, for the Lord will not
hold him guiltless that taketh His name in vain
IV
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy
V
Honor thy father and thy mother,
that thy days may be long upon the land
which the Lord thy God giveth thee
VI
Thou shalt not murder
VII
Thou shalt not commit adultery
VIII
Thou shalt not steal
IX
Thou shalt not bear false witness
against thy neighbor
X
Thou shalt not covet

Frankly, it's a beautiful Law of Liberty. Why? Because no man can place an arbitrary human interpretation upon you (legalism).

Actually bro, the 10 commands are not the law of liberty

Gal 5
13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

We cannot be UNDER the Law and yet be led of the Spirit. That's what Paul was saying. The law of liberty is to love one another.

James 2
8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

James contrasts the Law with the Law of liberty. The Law of the OT is NOT the Law of Liberty. Notice that James and Paul both refer to the law of liberty as "love your neighbor as yourself."

[TGBTG]

Rom 8:6
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Aquila,
I'm sure you agree that the letter of the Law states no adultery while the spirit of the Law states not to even look lustfully.
Also, the letter of the law states no killing, but the spirit of the law sates not to even hate.

So consider the letter of the law when it comes to the fourth commandment (keeping the sabbath). They (Natural Israel) were to do on work on that day.
Now, what do you think is the spirit of that same commandment?

[johnny44]

Originally Posted by Aquila

No. Here's what I'm saying...

Define "work"? According to this commandment alone... Is it unlawful to glean for one's basic necessity for food on the Sabbath? Is it unlawful to pull one's sheep from a ditch on the Sabbath? Is it unlawful to heal on the Sabbath?

No.

Jesus addressed these things. Now if someone wanted to work a double they didn't have to work to pay for a large screen plasma television, didn't stop to rest or take any devotional time, and didn't spend time with their family while working hard on their quest for a plasma television.... I'd say they've trashed the Sabbath.

But going to the grocery to feed yourself or our family? Nope.

The Lord was angry with the people for trying to gather food on the Sabbath in Ex. 16:27-28 as per His instructions.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

Rom 8:6
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Aquila,
I'm sure you agree that the letter of the Law states no adultery while the spirit of the Law states not to even look lustfully.
Also, the letter of the law states no killing, but the spirit of the law sates not to even hate.

So consider the letter of the law when it comes to the fourth commandment (keeping the sabbath). They (Natural Israel) were to do on work on that day.
Now, what do you think is the spirit of that same commandment?

That is a question that I've considered. My issue is that as with every law in God's Law we observe both the letter and the spirit of the commandment. When it comes to the fourth commandment we are told to observe the spirit of the law but not the letter of the law. That, in my mind, is like saying that it's okay to violate the letter of the seventh commandment, but just don't violate the spirit of the commandment. It's illogical.

I see it like this. We rest spiritually in Christ every day. However, we are to rest physically and actually take time out for faith and family on the seventh day Sabbath. Then both the spirit of the law and the letter of the law are maintained.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by johnny44

The Lord was angry with the people for trying to gather food on the Sabbath in Ex. 16:27-28 as per His instructions.

Yes... the Law of Moses was binding upon the nation of Israel, especially under the Old Covenant. Again, you're blending Law of Moses (placed in the SIDE of the ark) and the Law of God (placed inside the ark under the mercy seat). The two are related, yet distinct. Under the Old Covenant they are often considered a single body of law, the Law of Moses (for the nation of Israel) being based on the Law of God. However, under the New Covenant God is no longer dealing with the nation of Isreal. The Law of Moses with all it's ceremonial requirements, stipulations, observances, and sacrifices has been nailed to the cross. However, we are still called to be holy and obedient to God's "commandments". I believe this to be speaking of the moral Law of God, the Ten Commandments. The two governing principles are... Love God with all your being. Love your neighbor as yourself.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

1 John 3
22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

The commands are listed here: Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (which is essentially loving God). Love each other.

So, can I make a statue in loving honor of God and adore it? If not, why not?

If one doesn’t mind their neighbor sleeping with their wife, can they sleep with their neighbor’s wife if all are agreed? If not, why not?

Actually bro, the 10 commands are not the law of liberty

Gal 5
13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

We cannot be UNDER the Law and yet be led of the Spirit. That's what Paul was saying. The law of liberty is to love one another.

You’re not getting it either. LOL I’m not UNDER the Law. I’m led of the Spirit to obey in liberty. I’m FREE to obey, not free by obeying. lol

James 2
8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

James contrasts the Law with the Law of liberty. The Law of the OT is NOT the Law of Liberty. Notice that James and Paul both refer to the law of liberty as "love your neighbor as yourself."

Is James contrasting the Law with the Law of Liberty? Or is James contrasting two distinct perspectives of the Law? I see the last five commandments as embodying what it means to love my neighbor. But if I respect persons, I commit sin, and I am convinced of the law as a transgressor. Because if I keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, I am guilty of all. Because He who said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if I commit no adultery, yet if I kill, I am become a transgressor of the law. SO, I will speak, and act, as one who will be judged by what is to me, the law of liberty.

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by Aquila

That is a question that I've considered. My issue is that as with every law in God's Law we observe both the letter and the spirit of the commandment.

2 Cor 3
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

Rom 8:6
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter

Paul says we should not serve in the oldness of the letter

Originally Posted by Aquila

When it comes to the fourth commandment we are told to observe the spirit of the law but not the letter of the law. That, in my mind, is like saying that it's okay to violate the letter of the seventh commandment, but just don't violate the spirit of the commandment. It's illogical.

Yes, don't violate the spirit of the commandment is what I'm saying. If you don't violate the spirit of the command, there's no way you will be violating the letter of the command.
It's not possible to physically commit adultery without lust first occurring in the heart.
So if you don't violate the spirit of the command, it's not even possible to violate the letter of the command.

Originally Posted by Aquila

I see it like this. We rest spiritually in Christ every day. However, we are to rest physically and actually take time out for faith and family on the seventh day Sabbath. Then both the spirit of the law and the letter of the law are maintained.

Rom 8:6
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

We can't serve in the oldness of the letter and the newness of the spirit together. It's either one or the other.

Gal 4
21Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

The Law given on Mount Sinai (The 10 commandments) gendereth unto BONDAGE bro!