Obama For Mosque at Ground Zero

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Twisp

Yeah, why require actual proof? That would be crazy. lol Let's jump to irrational conclusions based on no evidence. AWESOME.

Finding such evidence can be tricky. A lot of the stuff that is being quoted concerning Rauf's calls for sharia in the United States and his primary fund raising theme* (which throws most of your "moderate" rhetoric out the window) are typically delivered in Arabic.

The University of Cairo's Department of Communications used to run a web site called rights4all.net. That site was the source for most of the things you hear in the blogosphere. When the current controversy kicked up, the University of Cairo closed down the site. Keying in that URL now just brings the Godaddy.com parking page.

(An example of the reporting by someone who was able to see the "rights4all.net" web site before it was pulled down: http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/a...post-911-.html).

A whois on the domain at Godaddy produces the following info for "rights4all.net" (I've obscured some of the email addy to protect this individual from being harvested by spiders and bots):

Registrant:
Einas Ibrahim
271 w 47th st
Apt 21F
Hawalli, Hawalli 10036
Kuwait

Registered through: GoDaddy.com, Inc. (http://www.godaddy.com)
Domain Name: RIGHTS4ALL.NET
Created on: 01-Feb-10
Expires on: 01-Feb-11
Last Updated on: 06-Mar-10

Administrative Contact:
Ibrahim, Einas weblady28@h###mail.com
271 w 47th st
Apt 21F
Hawalli, Hawalli 10036
Kuwait
2019250487

The domain name was only registered this past February. Kind of unusual to have to pull the whole thing down so soon, isn't it?


* Rauf's fund raising message to Muslims in the Middle East and Malaysia is "A Call to Prayer from the World Trade Center Rubble: Islamic Dawa in the Heart of post 9/11 America."

See: http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...rew-c-mccarthy

http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/i...asp?indid=2462
http://www.heraldsun.com/view/full_s...most_commented
http://www.tnr.com/blog/foreign-poli...nstitution-law

The first item of interest here is that Rauf considers the Park51 site to be within "the rubble of the WTC." And, he is correct. The Burlington Coat factory building which currently sits on this site was badly damaged an left unusable when the landing gear from one of the jets crashed through the roof. The whole reason the property is available for redevelopment is because it was so badly damaged by the attacks on 9/11.

This next part is indelicate to describe but it bears consideration. The body parts of dozens of individuals were also found on, within and on the sides of this building. http://bigjournalism.com/fgaffney/20...d-zero-mosque/

For whatever reason, Keith Olbermann has convinced DA2 that this building has nothing to do with 9/11 or "Ground Zero."

"Olbermann nails it!" DA2 exclaimed. Yeah, well, the terrorists "nailed" Park51 on 9/11 as well!

"Dawa," (or da'wa or dawah in English transliteration) as mentioned in Rauf's book title is a term commonly used by Muslims to describe their proselytizing activities. The word can be translated as "a call" or even in more recent times as "an invitation" to accept Islam.

In the Quran itself however, the Prophet Muhammad left very clear instructions describing just how dawa is to be performed:

(continued in next post) ...

[pelathais]

Qur'an (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." Suras 9 and 5 are the last "revelations" that Muhammad handed down.

Qur'an (9:5) "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them..." Prayer and charity are among the Five Pillars of Islam, as salat and zakat. See below.

Qur'an (9:11) - (Continued from above) "But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion" This confirms that Muhammad is speaking of conversion to Islam.

Qur'an (2:193) - "And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion be only for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers." The key phrase is to fight until "religion be only for Allah."

It is in the Hadith**, the traditions associated with the Prophet that we find even more explicit instruction for just how a Muslim is to proselytize or perform "dawa."

Sahih Muslim (1:33) The Messenger of Allah said: "I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah..." The last part is the Shahada, or profession of faith in Islam.

Sahih Muslim (19:4294) - "When you meet your enemies who are polytheists [Christians...], invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withhold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them ... If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them"

Bukhari (8:387) - "Allah's Apostle said, 'I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.' And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally and their reckoning will be with Allah.'"

Bukhari (53:392) - "While we were in the Mosque, the Prophet came out and said, "Let us go to the Jews" We went out till we reached Bait-ul-Midras. He said to them, "If you embrace Islam, you will be safe. You should know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle, and I want to expel you from this land. So, if anyone amongst you owns some property, he is permitted to sell it, otherwise you should know that the Earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle."

Bukhari (2:24) - "Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives and property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."

Bukhari (60:40) - "...:And fight them till there is no more affliction (i.e. no more worshiping of others along with Allah)." 'Affliction' of Muslims is explicitly defined here being a condition in which others worship a different god other than Allah. Muslims are commanded to use violence to 'rectify' the situation.

Bukhari (59:643) - "Testify that none has the right to be worshipped except Allah, or else I will chop off your neck!" Words of a military leader that Muhammad sent on an expedition with the mission of destroying a local religion in Yemen.

Ibn Ishaq 959 - Then the apostle sent Khalid bin Walid… to the Banu al-Harith and ordered him to invite them to Islam three days before he attacked them. If they accepted then he was to accept it from them, and if they declined he was to fight them. So Khalid set out and came to them, and sent out riders in all directions inviting the people to Islam, saying, “If you accept Islam you will be safe.” So the men accepted Islam as they were invited. The text goes on to say that Khalid taught the al-Harith about Islam after their "conversion," proving that it was based on fear of slaughter rather than a free and intelligent decision.

(from http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Qu...conversion.htm)

When Imam Rauf says "Dawa from the Rubble of the World Trade Center" in his Arabic fund raising appeals, his meaning is clearly understood by all Muslims. The subterfuge in not being so explicit in English is a ploy know as Taqiyya. Taqiyya is the acceptable deception that can be used to either protect a Muslim from his/her enemies or to advance the faith. Deceptive battle tactics employed by Muslim armies in the medieval period were considered to be just another form of taqiyya. "Anything to win" was the excuse.

Consider the nature of Allah as described in the Quaran: http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamo...t_deceiver.htm.

Since Allah is seen to be "plotting," "scheming" and "deceiving" - what should his follows do when confronted with a difficult or complex obstacle in spreading their faith?

(To be fair, there has been and continues to be quite a lot of discussion on this forum about Christians who behave the same way).




** The "Hadith" or "the Traditions" refer to a body of writings that were compiled describing the daily activities of the Prophet and his companions. The Quran exhorts the followers of Islam to follow the example of of the Prophet. The Hadith contains everything from a description of how and when the Prophet prayed (which is copied to the letter 5 times a day by the devout) to his eating habits and manner and style of dress. All of these details have been carefully studied, analyzed and debated for centuries. The resulting body of jurisprudence on the matter constitutes much of sharia (Islamic Law) and the practices of everyday Muslims.

The purpose of the mosque/community center - ACCORDING TO ITS BUILDERS - is to "call" America to Islam "FROM THE RUBBLE OF THE WTC."

The message inherent in that call comes directly from one of the Hadiths concerning Dawa: “If you accept Islam you will be safe.”

This message is brought to you "FROM THE RUBBLE OF THE WORLD TRADE CENTER."

[Praxeas]

You know I wonder if Mosques are ever investigated for violating the tax laws by telling their members how to vote

[canam]

Great post Pel , DA/2 might wanna re evaluate his thinking. As usual olberman is way out in lefty territory.

[Pressing-On]

Good stuff, Pel.

Steve Emerson has unearthed 13 hours of audio tape of Imam Rauf. He is getting the information ready for presentation.

• Defending wahhabism - a puritanical version of Islam that governs Saudi Arabia
  
• Calling for the elimination of Israel by claiming a one-nation state, meaning no more Jewish State.
  
• Defending Bin Laden's violence
  
• Demonstrating that there is a lot more to this man than merely a cleric.

Hear him interviewed by William Bennett: Time: 29:35

http://www.billbennett.com/michaelme...1lcnNvbjIubXAz

[Sister Alvear]

very scary....

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Good stuff, Pel.

Steve Emerson has unearthed 13 hours of audio tape of Imam Rauf. He is getting the information ready for presentation.

• Defending wahhabism - a puritanical version of Islam that governs Saudi Arabia
  
• Calling for the elimination of Israel by claiming a one-nation state, meaning no more Jewish State.
  
• Defending Bin Laden's violence
  
• Demonstrating that there is a lot more to this man than merely a cleric.

Hear him interviewed by William Bennett: Time: 29:35

http://www.billbennett.com/michaelme...1lcnNvbjIubXAz

It's like trying to argue the MSNBC/NBC $182 BILLION bail out. Just Google or do other searches on that. All of the primary news reports have mysteriously disappeared and there's nothing left but the blogs and forum's reporting and giving links to news stories that no longer work.

Same thing with Rauf. These people are savvy. They go to some lengths to cover their tracks. Certainly, Rauf's "one state solution" for the Middle East is akin to calling for the destruction of Israel. Do we really want a call for the destruction of Israel to emanate "from the rubble of the World Trade Center" as Rauf himself puts it?

What gets me are my "brothers" - the fellow EX-UPC ministers who are of the opinion that since it was wrong to force women to wear pants and all of that, then it must be wrong to be "politically conservative" as well.

We live in a complex world that requires a lot of critical thinking and evaluation. Getting stuck in the rut of "Binary Thinking" is a common flaw. The world isn't "black and white." It's a myriad of colors - not to mention the flavors and textures!

Giving up donuts for your health doesn't mean you also throw out the whole wheat bread just because they have the same ingredients. You have to think more clearly than that.

[Twisp]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Finding such evidence can be tricky. A lot of the stuff that is being quoted concerning Rauf's calls for sharia in the United States and his primary fund raising theme* (which throws most of your "moderate" rhetoric out the window) are typically delivered in Arabic.

The University of Cairo's Department of Communications used to run a web site called rights4all.net. That site was the source for most of the things you hear in the blogosphere. When the current controversy kicked up, the University of Cairo closed down the site. Keying in that URL now just brings the Godaddy.com parking page.

(An example of the reporting by someone who was able to see the "rights4all.net" web site before it was pulled down: http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/a...post-911-.html).

A whois on the domain at Godaddy produces the following info for "rights4all.net" (I've obscured some of the email addy to protect this individual from being harvested by spiders and bots):

Registrant:
Einas Ibrahim
271 w 47th st
Apt 21F
Hawalli, Hawalli 10036
Kuwait

Registered through: GoDaddy.com, Inc. (http://www.godaddy.com)
Domain Name: RIGHTS4ALL.NET
Created on: 01-Feb-10
Expires on: 01-Feb-11
Last Updated on: 06-Mar-10

Administrative Contact:
Ibrahim, Einas weblady28@h###mail.com
271 w 47th st
Apt 21F
Hawalli, Hawalli 10036
Kuwait
2019250487

The domain name was only registered this past February. Kind of unusual to have to pull the whole thing down so soon, isn't it?


* Rauf's fund raising message to Muslims in the Middle East and Malaysia is "A Call to Prayer from the World Trade Center Rubble: Islamic Dawa in the Heart of post 9/11 America."

See: http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...rew-c-mccarthy

http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/i...asp?indid=2462
http://www.heraldsun.com/view/full_s...most_commented
http://www.tnr.com/blog/foreign-poli...nstitution-law

The first item of interest here is that Rauf considers the Park51 site to be within "the rubble of the WTC." And, he is correct. The Burlington Coat factory building which currently sits on this site was badly damaged an left unusable when the landing gear from one of the jets crashed through the roof. The whole reason the property is available for redevelopment is because it was so badly damaged by the attacks on 9/11.

This next part is indelicate to describe but it bears consideration. The body parts of dozens of individuals were also found on, within and on the sides of this building. http://bigjournalism.com/fgaffney/20...d-zero-mosque/

For whatever reason, Keith Olbermann has convinced DA2 that this building has nothing to do with 9/11 or "Ground Zero."

"Olbermann nails it!" DA2 exclaimed. Yeah, well, the terrorists "nailed" Park51 on 9/11 as well!

"Dawa," (or da'wa or dawah in English transliteration) as mentioned in Rauf's book title is a term commonly used by Muslims to describe their proselytizing activities. The word can be translated as "a call" or even in more recent times as "an invitation" to accept Islam.

In the Quran itself however, the Prophet Muhammad left very clear instructions describing just how dawa is to be performed:

(continued in next post) ...

Yeah, evidence for this is tricky to find, just like the evidence for birthers, people that don't think we went to the moon, people that think the moon is hollow.

So what is the problem here? You don't want other faiths to try and reach people in regards to their religion? If you replaced Islam with Christian, that would be okay?

Again, moderate muslims are not the people who brought down the towers. If Al Qaeda were building this cultural center, the fervor against it would be valid. Since it is not, it is simply knee-jerk reactions.

What is next? Not wanting churches built after the next Christian bombs an abortion clinic? No

What is STUPID about this, is that there is a mosque in the Pentagon that was opened 8 years ago that no one seems to have an issue with.

If there is so much outrage about building a cultural center close to Ground Zero in NY, why was there no outrage about building an actual mosque at the actual site of an attack?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...id=dynamiclead

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Twisp

Well, yes, if you take that phrase out of context with the rest of the chapter, it does look bad.

However, when taken IN context with the rest of the chapter in that book, you see what the actual message is. He states that separation of church and state is not violated if we establish separate Muslim, Jewish, or Christian personal status courts to render verdicts in, say, family law issues, and have those decisions ratified by secular state courts.

He is making the case that we can allow certain religious groups to judge certain legal cases according to what religion they want to be judged by. In fact, he lists the above three religions when giving examples.

I know, I know, it sounds worse when you just use that one statement than actually using the entire argument.

I guess that is the advantage of taking things out of context.

That's unconstitutional. The Constitution demands that all citizens have EQUAL representation under the law. Having a Muslim court, a Christian, court, a Jewish court, etc. would create different legal standards by which to judge citizens legally. Imagine a Muslim woman beaten by her husband for wearing something "improper" according to Islamic custom. Would she be subject to an Islamic court or a civil court? Would the Islamic court rule that according to Islam her husband didn't violate the law???

The entire idea is an UNAMERICAN mess. Also, the idea is nothing but a "wedge" to legalize Sharia in the United States. Once given legal status, it will spread slowly throughout our system as it has and is spreading throughout Eurabia's system (I mean Europe).

This man's teaching is an assult on our Constitution.

[Aquila]

Please review first post....

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...ad.php?t=31006