Emma Bontrager Tributes

[Emma Bontrager]

Originally Posted by JaneEyre

Yes, Emma....Tell him.

Here is a link to much information if you are studying your culture, little Emma.

http://www.goshen.edu/english/ervinb.../ervinbib.html

It is a selected bibliography of Mennonite and Amish Folklore and Folk Arts

Thank you, ma'am.

Originally Posted by Emma Bontrager

Oh, I don't think so.

I'll take it from real Amish characters before I will a mockery.

[Emma Bontrager]

Originally Posted by RD Cox

I'll take it from real Amish characters before I will a mockery.

Emma isn't exactly what I would call a mockery. But seriously, Steve Hoover ought to know, if you don't agree with Emma. I think that both Steve and Emma agree that it does happen, but to say it is the norm is, I think, an exaggeration. That's kind of like saying Apostolic kids all throw off the long dresses and long hair etc. and go party down. Well, some do, but I couldn't say most. The documentary was based on a few lives of kids who were so far away from the Amish roots they were willing to be in a documentary. That says something right there.

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by Emma Bontrager

Emma isn't exactly what I would call a mockery. But seriously, Steve Hoover ought to know, if you don't agree with Emma. I think that both Steve and Emma agree that it does happen, but to say it is the norm is, I think, an exaggeration. That's kind of like saying Apostolic kids all throw off the long dresses and long hair etc. and go party down. Well, some do, but I couldn't say most. The documentary was based on a few lives of kids who were so far away from the Amish roots they were willing to be in a documentary. That says something right there.

Emma I would acknowledge this - that the wild parties are a "normal" occurrance for any sizable gathering among the Amish and even many OOM parties of rumspringa age. I do not think it's fair to say it is normal for all or most to engage in the wildest activities though. In my experience, and I have been to my share - even a few of the Amish ones - there are usally about three divisions at a "Rumspringa Singing".

1. The striaght ones - ultracons if you will. These sing the German and English songs and see the "Singing" in it's original sense. Fellowship, singing, possibly dating.

2. The moderates - representing perhaps 70% of the Rumspinga group - they may or may not sing - but the clear focus is to have a good time. Smoking (though it is currently changing) and even an occaisional drink is cool and accepted as it is among most of their parents. This group has major hoe-downs in the form of square dancing to a caller and perhaps a harmonica, accordian or Jew's Harp. Like the ultra-cons they are quite committed to the Amish way of life though some consider a less rigid life as a Plain Person who is allowed an automobile.(meaning they may consider becoming New Order Amish or Mennonite)

3. Are the WILD ones they will have plenty of alcohol, possibly drugs, hard rock and roll at their disposal. Most of these will get a car with no clear plans for the future. They get the media attention when their drunkness or drugs lands them in jail or fined with a DWI.


Natually, these groups have crossovers, but in my experience these three do exist quite clearly.
There is also a substancial difference between various districts and states. So the percentages would change some.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

Emma I would acknowledge this - that the wild parties are a "normal" occurrance for any sizable gathering among the Amish and even many OOM parties of rumspringa age. I do not think it's fair to say it is normal for all or most to engage in the wildest activities though. In my experience, and I have been to my share - even a few of the Amish ones - there are usally about three divisions at a "Rumspringa Singing".

1. The striaght ones - ultracons if you will. These sing the German and English songs and see the "Singing" in it's original sense. Fellowship, singing, possibly dating.

2. The moderates - representing perhaps 70% of the Rumspinga group - they may or may not sing - but the clear focus is to have a good time. Smoking (though it is currently changing) and even an occaisional drink is cool and accepted as it is among most of their parents. This group has major hoe-downs in the form of square dancing to a caller and perhaps a harmonica, accordian or Jew's Harp. Like the ultra-cons they are quite committed to the Amish way of life though some consider a less rigid life as a Plain Person who is allowed an automobile.(meaning they may consider becoming New Order Amish or Mennonite)

3. Are the WILD ones they will have plenty of alcohol, possibly drugs, hard rock and roll at their disposal. Most of these will get a car with no clear plans for the future. They get the media attention when their drunkness or drugs lands them in jail or fined with a DWI.


Natually, these groups have crossovers, but in my experience these three do exist quite clearly.
There is also a substancial difference between various districts and states. So the percentages would change some.

I felt that Devil's Playground gave this group the vast majority of the media attention. I felt it was biased towards rock and roll, smoking, doing drugs and having sex.

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by ILG

I felt that Devil's Playground gave this group the vast majority of the media attention. I felt it was biased towards rock and roll, smoking, doing drugs and having sex.

I have no doubt you are correct. I was sick watching it knowing it did not accurately represent the majority of Amish youth.

Originally Posted by Emma Bontrager

Emma isn't exactly what I would call a mockery. But seriously, Steve Hoover ought to know, if you don't agree with Emma. I think that both Steve and Emma agree that it does happen, but to say it is the norm is, I think, an exaggeration. That's kind of like saying Apostolic kids all throw off the long dresses and long hair etc. and go party down. Well, some do, but I couldn't say most. The documentary was based on a few lives of kids who were so far away from the Amish roots they were willing to be in a documentary. That says something right there.

It follows a few lives in detail, however there are more than a few lives representing the extreme "crossover" section of what Stephen calls "moderates." (Sin is sin, you can't "moderate" it and call it all good BTW) My connections have friends and family that they can pick out in the background of the film. They expound on what they know of their lives and I assure you that this documentary hardly begins to cover the scope of the situation. My contacts tell me that this isn't the half of it by a long shot.

To make it simple for you, the Devil's Playground is a thin, thin cross section. And those that get caught and gain publicity are also only a small percentage.

Just because you smell a little smoke doesn't mean that there is a little fire, for there is so much more smoke that has made its way well past your nostrils.

Not to mention your analogy is short. It's more like a bunch of apostolic kids serving their flesh in just as much sin as those that look like the world while they wear their costumes. It becomes hard to tell who's who and what is what when mere appearance is no indication. If you're running with the devil in his pack, it matters little what you are wearing, he'll take you as you are, it's all the same to him as long as everyone all drinks of the same punch bowl.

Therefore, Rumspringa facilitates and thus indorses sin as a rule, it allows for it and thus invites, and it is the norm for Amish youth of that age, not the exception. No, not everyone becomes a meth head, I already covered that, but sin is sin. Rumspringa is a free gift of indulgences on a trial basis. Now then, whether they eventually join the Amish church, or a german counterpart, is somewhat beside the point. I know most eventually do, but that neither makes it right, a Godly practice, nor does it wash away their sins and make it all better.

The Devil's Playground reveals the essence of Rumspringa, even if in a 21st century wrapper. My sources indicate that it is not as bias as you might like to think.

So you know what Rumspringa literally means? Does this speak to you of innocent Christian sin free fun for the youth?

The basic wisdom is that the kids will get "it" out of system and join the church after a time of "courtship." Who are they courting besides one another? Christ?

I suppose it works, but is it without knowingly commiting sin....is it of God? No.

This ain't no ice cream social. I don't care what Wikipedia says!

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

Emma I would acknowledge this - that the wild parties are a "normal" occurrance for any sizable gathering among the Amish and even many OOM parties of rumspringa age. I do not think it's fair to say it is normal for all or most to engage in the wildest activities though. In my experience, and I have been to my share - even a few of the Amish ones - there are usally about three divisions at a "Rumspringa Singing".

1. The striaght ones - ultracons if you will. These sing the German and English songs and see the "Singing" in it's original sense. Fellowship, singing, possibly dating.

2. The moderates - representing perhaps 70% of the Rumspinga group - they may or may not sing - but the clear focus is to have a good time. Smoking (though it is currently changing) and even an occaisional drink is cool and accepted as it is among most of their parents. This group has major hoe-downs in the form of square dancing to a caller and perhaps a harmonica, accordian or Jew's Harp. Like the ultra-cons they are quite committed to the Amish way of life though some consider a less rigid life as a Plain Person who is allowed an automobile.(meaning they may consider becoming New Order Amish or Mennonite)

3. Are the WILD ones they will have plenty of alcohol, possibly drugs, hard rock and roll at their disposal. Most of these will get a car with no clear plans for the future. They get the media attention when their drunkness or drugs lands them in jail or fined with a DWI.


Natually, these groups have crossovers, but in my experience these three do exist quite clearly.
There is also a substancial difference between various districts and states. So the percentages would change some.

I didn't say that it was normal for all, but rather the norm and not the exception just as you are saying here. Nor did I intend to suggest that most participate in the wildest of activities. I should hope not. In comparison, even the milder activities should be cause for Christian alarm.

I'm not raising my kids to throw them at the devil at that impressionable age just to see if they sink or swim. They are making knowledgeable decisions to be baptized into Christ now of their own free will. They are learning even at a young age what true Godly courtship is really all about with respect for their ability to grasp certain concepts as they go. They'll be no barnyard courtships in my backyard under the light of the lantern. Why?

We believe in raising them up right in the Way that they should go and being consistent all the way through. When youth have a real relationship with Christ, "running around" means putting in an honest days work.


Thank you for making my point clearer.

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

I have no doubt you are correct. I was sick watching it knowing it did not accurately represent the majority of Amish youth.

I believe it accurately represents the majority of Rumspringa in essense...and yes, it made me sick too.

I was really glad to make friends with a 16 year old young man that commited to the Amish and boycotted the nonsense. I don't agree with all of that Biblically, but from his perception it was a move toward what is right, and in comparision, it was. It was very refreshing to see an Amish youth with such a presense of mind as to reject foolish unBiblical and unChristian traditions outright based on their own lack of merit.

Perhaps he'll eventually have an eye about the rest.

BTW Stephen, did you by chance view the 20/20 expose involving the Amish. That made me sicker.