You are correct, sir. Observing Torah will save no one. No one can be saved under the First Covenant. (Paul calls it the First Covenant, and that's what I call it.)
Doh! I shouldn't type @ 3:00 a.m.
I don't think our view is the same regarding the recipient of Paul's letter to the believers in Colosse. In nearly every place he went, he visited the synagogue and proclaimed the Good News to the Jews, and there were always some who believed. While I respect your view, I'm convinced that his letters were to an assembly of believers who were Jew and Gentile.
We are Apostolic.
Our Apostolic forefathers provide for us the blueprint of our lifestyle. They kept Shabbat.
Yeshua, our final Authority for all things, kept Shabbat.
I will not jump on anyone who doesn't keep the Sabbath, though my suggestion to Michael might seem as much, but let me be clear: I lovingly exhort my Apostolic brethren to observe the Fourth Commandment and keep Shabbat.
A-men, and amen!
Thanks for discussing this!
I think there is a verse that says "Come let us reason together". I like when we can reason things out in a reasonable manner.
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Psa 119:165 (KJV) 165 Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.
"Do not believe everthing you read on the internet" - Abe Lincoln
Note: Many pastors, Bible students, etc. have The Interlinear Greek-English New Testament by Jay P. Green, Sr., General Editor and Translator. Mr. Green, Sr. also has available an inexpensive yet very nice leather Bible of his English translation, complete having both the O.T. and the N.T. It is titled The Literal Translation of the Holy Bible. The address is Sovereign Grace Publishers, P.O. Box 4998, Lafayette, IN 47903. The following verses marked Jay Green are from his translation. His translation can be viewed in the On-line Bible and E-sword Bible programs. On E-sword, it is LITV.
Acts 20:7“And upon the first day of the week (G4521), when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.” Acts 20:7 King James Version
The word “week” should be translated “Sabbaths.” From Greek to English, this should be translated in the genitive plural – “of Sabbaths.” The genitive case is used to show possession.
Should be translated:“And on the first of the Sabbaths, the disciples having been assembled to break bread, being about to depart on the morrow, Paul reasoned to them. And he continued his speech until midnight.” Acts 20:7 Jay Green
“εν δε τη μια των σαββατων4521 συνηγμενων των μαθητων του κλασαι αρτον ο παυλος διελεγετο αυτοις μελλων εξιεναι τη επαυριον παρετεινεν τε τον λογον μεχρι μεσονυκτιου” Acts 20:7 Greek New Testament
Note: “And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was long preaching, he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead.” Acts 20:9
Eutychus is a Greek name, which shows there was at least one Greek present in this meeting. So many, many years (30+?) after Jesus’ ascension, a Greek convert to Christianity (at least one) is keeping the Sabbath in Troas, a gentile city! Being in a gentile city, everyone in this meeting may have been a gentile except Paul! Notice they are not meeting in a synagogue! This is totally a disciple’s meeting.
So even after 30 years, the Holy Spirit is still writing about the Sabbath Day that you are not keeping.
1 Corinthians 16:2“Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.” 1 Corinthians 16:2 King James Version
Should be translated:“On one of the Sabbaths, let each of you put by himself, storing up whatever he is prospered, that there not be collections then when I come.” 1 Corinthians 16:2 Jay Green
“κατα μιαν σαββατων4521 εκαστος υμων παρ εαυτω τιθετω ο τι αν ευοδωται ινα μη οταν ελθω τοτε λογιαι γινωνται” 1 Corinthians 16:2 Greek New Testament
Note: Again, this is maybe 30 years after Jesus’ ascension. The gentiles in Corinthian are meeting on the Sabbath!
John 20:19“Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.” John 20:19 KJV
Should be translated:“Then it being evening on that day, the first of the Sabbaths, and the doors having been locked where the disciples were assembled because of fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst and said to them, Peace to you.” John 20:19 Jay Green
“ουσης ουν οψιας τη ημερα εκεινη τη μια των σαββατων4521 και των θυρων κεκλεισμενων οπου ησαν μαθηται συνηγμενοι δια τον φοβον των ιουδαιων ηλθεν ο ιησους και εστη εις το μεσον και λεγει αυτοις ειρηνη υμιν” John 20:19 Greek New Testament
Note: After Jesus’ death the Sabbath is still kept. How did the Sabbath get eliminated???
G4521 σαββατον sabbaton
Thayer Definition:
1) the seventh day of each week which was a sacred festival on which the Israelites were required to abstain from all work: 1a) the institution of the Sabbath, the law for keeping holy every seventh day of the week
1b) a single Sabbath, Sabbath day
Does the King James Version ever translate the Greek word “sabbaton” correctly? YES, when the translators want to, they do translate “sabbaton” correctly! Examples: Acts 13:27, 42, 44; 15:21; 16:13; 18:4
Before posting, please read my study on the Sabbath Day.
Sabbat Shaloam.
In Jesus,
Brother Bruce
Bruce, You are making yourself a debtor to keep the whole law, not just the TC's. Therefore you have placed yourself under the curse of the law. (Deut 28:15-68).
"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse:..." (see Gal 3:10-14)
You are going about to establish your own righteousness, just as the ignorant Jews did, not submitting to the righteousness of God.
"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth." (Rom 10:3-4)
__________________
The Gospel of Jesus Christ: Jesus bore away my sins, my sickness, and my poverty. That covers it all. Everything else is just legalism.
Heb.4: 3: For we which have believed do enter into rest,(sabbath) as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my restsabbath) although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4: For he spake in a certain place of the SEVENTH day on this wise, And God did rest the SEVENTH day from all his works. 5: And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.(sabbath)
The law sabbath was a shadow of the sabbath we enter when we believe.
See all these things was a shadow.Colo.2:16: Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:17: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ
You are going about to establish your own righteousness, just as the ignorant Jews did, not submitting to the righteousness of God.
"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth." (Rom 10:3-4)
As a Jew, I am amazed at the length and depth of offense in this post. Ignorant Jews?
I realize this is just an internet forum, and I'm the first to make jokes about my heritage and ancestors. This is no joke.
Ignorant Jews? Seriously?
Bro-Larry, I'm embarrassed for you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bro-Larry
Bruce, You are making yourself a debtor to keep the whole law, not just the TC's. Therefore you have placed yourself under the curse of the law. (Deut 28:15-68).
"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse:..." (see Gal 3:10-14)
Bro-Larry, in the event that you're not informed about Bro. Klein, let me give you a little hint: Klein is a Jewish name and Bro. Bruce is, like me, a Messianic Jew. On the 8th day of our life, we entered into an everlasting covenant with the G-d of Israel. At our Bar-Mitzvahs, we affirmed to keep this covenant in the sight of G-d and family. It's part of our 3500 year old heritage.
Not only do we keep this covenant, but so did the Disciples of Yeshua because He taught them to be great in the Kingdom by obeying the commandments and teaching others to do the same. If the Law was a curse only, why would The Master teach His disciples to keep the Law? Furthermore, why did Paul remain zealous for it to the end if the Law is a curse? Because it's not a curse; it HAS a curse, just like it has a BLESSING.
Bro. Bruce's point is that the Church is obeying nine of the 10 commandments instead of all 10. I find it amazing that Believers keep 9 out of the Ten Commandments and yet are not accused of keeping the Law, but keeping all 10 means they are?
You go to the trouble of referring to the passages which outline the curses for those who do not submit to G-d's Law, but you leave out the passages which outline the blessings for those who do submit to G-d's Law, which just so happens to be in the 14 verses which precede the passage you cited.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bro-Larry
You are going about to establish your own righteousness, just as the ignorant Jews did, not submitting to the righteousness of God.
"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth." (Rom 10:3-4)
The disciples of Jesus, as well as Paul and James (Jesus' brother) continued to be Torah observant, so were they going about to establish their own righteousness? G-d made an everlasting covenant with His people in which He would bless them if they obeyed Torah, and it's hard for anyone to argue that the Jewish people remain as a people who are more blessed than any other. G-d places a blessing to the one who obeys His Torah. To be staunchly Anti-Torah is one thing, but calling the Jews ignorant is an embarrassment.
Being 'under the Law' does not mean performing functions of the Law. It means relying on the Law for salvation instead of the blood of Jesus. Those who have Jesus as THE foundation and obey Torah are not under the Law.
Instead of labeling G-d's Chosen People as ignorant, the Church should be praying for the blinders to be removed from them.
A better translation of Romans 10:3-4 would be, "For Messiah is the GOAL of TORAH for righteousness to everyone that believes." To say that Christ ended the Law He gave at Sinai means that when he gave it as an everlasting covenant, it really wasn't everlasting, but only sort of everlasting. Everlasting means forever, or until G-d's watch stops ticking.
The Anti-Jewish theological bias which the Adversary has sowed into the Bride of Messiah needs to be purged because when Yeshua returns, He's coming as a Jewish King. Yeshua, the King of the Jews, will reign over Israel and all the earth, and He'll reign over people who have the Torah written on their hearts. Our King will have no place for Anti-Jewish, Anti-Torah attitudes in His Kingdom.
__________________
I’m not a scholar, just a crazy Jewish Believer who wants to see no one deceived and everyone saved.
Shalom uv’racha b’shem Yeshua Mishikheinu!
Peace and blessings unto you in the Name of Yeshua, Our Messiah!
You are going about to establish your own righteousness, just as the ignorant Jews did, not submitting to the righteousness of God.
"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth." (Rom 10:3-4)
[quote}As a Jew, I am amazed at the length and depth of offense in this post. Ignorant Jews? I realize this is just an internet forum, and I'm the first to make jokes about my heritage and ancestors. This is no joke. Ignorant Jews? Seriously? Bro-Larry, I'm embarrassed for you.
Not to put words in Bro. Larry's mouth, but it would appear to me that you took his comments out of context and generalized them.
It doesn't appear to me that he was saying that Jews are ignorant, but was speaking of specific Jews who were ignorant of the Righteousness of God. Read your N.T. there are such people just as now there are ignorant (insert whatever race/religion you want) now.
As a Jew, I am amazed at the length and depth of offense in this post. Ignorant Jews?I realize this is just an internet forum, and I'm the first to make jokes about my heritage and ancestors. This is no joke.
Ignorant Jews? Seriously?Bro-Larry, I'm embarrassed for you.[/qoute]
Sorry if you are offended. The word "ignorant" simply means "to not have adequate knowledge". We are all ignorant, just in different areas.
BTW: I was just using scriptural terminology. How you read (Rom 10:3-4)?
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The Gospel of Jesus Christ: Jesus bore away my sins, my sickness, and my poverty. That covers it all. Everything else is just legalism.
As a Jew, I am amazed at the length and depth of offense in this post. Ignorant Jews?
I realize this is just an internet forum, and I'm the first to make jokes about my heritage and ancestors. This is no joke.
Ignorant Jews? Seriously?
Bro-Larry, I'm embarrassed for you.
Bro-Larry, in the event that you're not informed about Bro. Klein, let me give you a little hint: Klein is a Jewish name and Bro. Bruce is, like me, a Messianic Jew. On the 8th day of our life, we entered into an everlasting covenant with the G-d of Israel. At our Bar-Mitzvahs, we affirmed to keep this covenant in the sight of G-d and family. It's part of our 3500 year old heritage.
Not only do we keep this covenant, but so did the Disciples of Yeshua because He taught them to be great in the Kingdom by obeying the commandments and teaching others to do the same. If the Law was a curse only, why would The Master teach His disciples to keep the Law? Furthermore, why did Paul remain zealous for it to the end if the Law is a curse? Because it's not a curse; it HAS a curse, just like it has a BLESSING.
Bro. Bruce's point is that the Church is obeying nine of the 10 commandments instead of all 10. I find it amazing that Believers keep 9 out of the Ten Commandments and yet are not accused of keeping the Law, but keeping all 10 means they are?
You go to the trouble of referring to the passages which outline the curses for those who do not submit to G-d's Law, but you leave out the passages which outline the blessings for those who do submit to G-d's Law, which just so happens to be in the 14 verses which precede the passage you cited.
The disciples of Jesus, as well as Paul and James (Jesus' brother) continued to be Torah observant, so were they going about to establish their own righteousness? G-d made an everlasting covenant with His people in which He would bless them if they obeyed Torah, and it's hard for anyone to argue that the Jewish people remain as a people who are more blessed than any other. G-d places a blessing to the one who obeys His Torah. To be staunchly Anti-Torah is one thing, but calling the Jews ignorant is an embarrassment.
Being 'under the Law' does not mean performing functions of the Law. It means relying on the Law for salvation instead of the blood of Jesus. Those who have Jesus as THE foundation and obey Torah are not under the Law.
Instead of labeling G-d's Chosen People as ignorant, the Church should be praying for the blinders to be removed from them.
A better translation of Romans 10:3-4 would be, "For Messiah is the GOAL of TORAH for righteousness to everyone that believes." To say that Christ ended the Law He gave at Sinai means that when he gave it as an everlasting covenant, it really wasn't everlasting, but only sort of everlasting. Everlasting means forever, or until G-d's watch stops ticking.
The Anti-Jewish theological bias which the Adversary has sowed into the Bride of Messiah needs to be purged because when Yeshua returns, He's coming as a Jewish King. Yeshua, the King of the Jews, will reign over Israel and all the earth, and He'll reign over people who have the Torah written on their hearts. Our King will have no place for Anti-Jewish, Anti-Torah attitudes in His Kingdom.
I am not anti-Jewish. I am anti-legalism. The fact is, Brother, If you miss it in one point, you are guilty of not keeping it all. If you are trying to be justified by keeping the law you have fallen from grace. I submit to you that, on that basis, neither you nor Brother Bruce have ever kept the law.
Have you not read Paul's letter to the Galatians? Almost the entire book is a dissertation on whether or not the gentiles should be compelled to keep the law. In Chapter two Paul tells about Peter's dissimulation. Peter was living in the freedom of grace as a gentile, until some brethren from Jerusalem came to Antioch. Then Peter and even Barnabas withdrew and hypocritically refused to continue to eat with the gentile brethren, "fearing them which were of the circumcision". Paul said Peter was not walking uprightly, according to the truth of the gospel. Therefore Paul boldly withstood the great Peter to his face in front of them all.
__________________
The Gospel of Jesus Christ: Jesus bore away my sins, my sickness, and my poverty. That covers it all. Everything else is just legalism.
Good. Legalism is not Torah, it is perversion of Torah.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bro-Larry
The fact is, Brother, If you miss it in one point, you are guilty of not keeping it all. If you are trying to be justified by keeping the law you have fallen from grace. I submit to you that, on that basis, neither you nor Brother Bruce have ever kept the law.
21st Century Jews do not keep Torah to be justified before God; this concept doesn't exist, yet this seems to be part of your mantra. Jews keep Torah out of OBEDIENCE. Brother Bruce and I do not keep Torah to be saved; we keep it as a sign of obedience, because we are saved.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bro-Larry
Have you not read Paul's letter to the Galatians? Almost the entire book is a dissertation on whether or not the gentiles should be compelled to keep the law.
...instead of trusting in the work at Calvary. The Galatians focused on everything EXCEPT their salvation in Yeshua. They forgot the central figure of their faith. That's not a mistake Brother Bruce and I make. When we observe the Sabbath, we celebrate the One who is the Lord of the Sabbath.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bro-Larry
In Chapter two Paul tells about Peter's dissimulation. Peter was living in the freedom of grace as a gentile, until some brethren from Jerusalem came to Antioch.
No sir. He was putting aside the Oral Law's command regarding the prohibition of table fellowship with Gentiles, the very same ordinance which initially prohibited him from entering the house of Cornelius. Please take off your anomialist glasses and start looking at the Torah as a person grafted into the Olive Tree of Israel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bro-Larry
Then Peter and even Barnabas withdrew and hypocritically refused to continue to eat with the gentile brethren, "fearing them which were of the circumcision". Paul said Peter was not walking uprightly, according to the truth of the gospel. Therefore Paul boldly withstood the great Peter to his face in front of them all.
...and Paul rebuked Peter properly, since the wall of partition has been broken down. Table fellowship (not dietary prohibitions) was no longer an issue. But Peter didn't stop being a Jew and start living like a Gentile.
Heresy, sir.
Paul tells the Messianics in Rome that the Law:
...is holy, just, and good.
...is spiritual.
...is his delight.
To be anti-legalism is good. Read the Talmud and then you'll see what real legalism is. God's Holy Torah, given to Moses, then to Israel, then to the world, was declared by King David to be nothing less than perfect. Furthermore, it did something: it converted the soul.
Declaring the Law to be witchcraft will definitely provoke Jews, but not to jealousy. Please reconsider your position on God's Holy Torah.
__________________
I’m not a scholar, just a crazy Jewish Believer who wants to see no one deceived and everyone saved.
Shalom uv’racha b’shem Yeshua Mishikheinu!
Peace and blessings unto you in the Name of Yeshua, Our Messiah!
Brother Michael, the Jerusalem Council did not want to put the yoke of the Oral Law upon new babes in Messiah, hence the 'no greater burden.' They needed a starting point, which was to stop engaging in pagan practices, but the 'no greater burden than these necessary things' is not to be interpreted as an ending point, or an exemption from obedience to Torah. People forget about verse 21:
So you assume that the Church in Antioch which was founded by Jewish believers and Overseen by Barnabas and Saul were engaging in Paganism? So the Apostles were allowing Paganism in the Church THEY WERE RESPONSIBLE FOR?
When Agabus another Jewish Prophet came to Antioch there was no mention of Paganism. The only trouble that came was with the Pharisee believers wanting the Flock to be circumcised and keep the law of Moses.
So you assume that the Church in Antioch which was founded by Jewish believers and Overseen by Barnabas and Saul were engaging in Paganism?
I do not assume the whole Church body was. However, the possibility exists that, when not among the Assembly of Believers, some were still engaging in Paganism until they were fully discipled on the subject.
Why do I think that? Because the situation of a 1st Century new convert is no different than today. Many new converts have a supernatural encounter with the Holy Spirit but won't give up their non-Godly lifestyle for a few weeks (i.e. perverse message t-shirts, foul language music, porn, etc.) until the Pastor/Clergy is able to disciple the new convert on what a godly lifestyle entails. It was no different for the 1st Century Gentile new convert in Antioch.
The Jerusalem Council's 4 prohibitions ensured that the Gentiles were no longer participating in the idolatry of their local temples while being part of the Body of Messiah. Engaging in these acts would exclude them from fellowship in the synagogue. Implementing these 4 prohibitions was the starting point for the Gentiles in their discipleship.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple
So the Apostles were allowing Paganism in the Church THEY WERE RESPONSIBLE FOR?
No, I believe they kept it out, but could not possibly keep some of the members from continuing to engage in it when outside of the fellowship. No assembly of believers (church) on earth is pristine. The Apostles could not possibly monitor what went on in the lives of believers OUTSIDE of the Antioch Synagogue any more than a 21st Century Pastor can monitor the lifestyle of the Church flock.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple
When Agabus another Jewish Prophet came to Antioch there was no mention of Paganism. The only trouble that came was with the Pharisee believers wanting the Flock to be circumcised and keep the law of Moses.
Please show me where the Antioch community were troubled by Pharisee believers who wanted the Flock to be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses.
Acts 11 doesn't mention Paganism, but the Jewish historian Josephus does. He points out that Antioch was not far from the sacred groves of Daphne, and numerous pagan temples in the city were overshadowed by the sanctuary of Apollo, where sexual immorality was practiced as religion. Amazingly, Antioch was known for having a large Jewish population. (Antiquities 12.3.1)
The Jerusalem Council enacted 4 prohibitions which dealt specifically with Pagan practices. If paganism wasn't an issue, then the prohibitions would not be needed, but the fact is, they were.
The four prohibitions enacted by the Jerusalem Council gave structure to a former pagan Gentile new convert to avoid their old lifestyle, especially when outside of the Assembly. It had nothing to do with exempting a Gentile from observing the 4th commandment.
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I’m not a scholar, just a crazy Jewish Believer who wants to see no one deceived and everyone saved.
Shalom uv’racha b’shem Yeshua Mishikheinu!
Peace and blessings unto you in the Name of Yeshua, Our Messiah!
I shouldn't type @ 3:00 a.m.
sabbath) although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4: For he spake in a certain place of the SEVENTH day on this wise, And God did rest the SEVENTH day from all his works. 5: And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.(sabbath)
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