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  #21  
Old 04-19-2017, 12:36 PM
Originalist Originalist is offline
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Re: Libertarian for universal healthcare!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
There is a lot of myth about the Founding Fathers. Did you know that our Founding Fathers imposed rather strong laws upon corporations? In fact, these laws continued, and were added to for nearly the first 100 years of our Republic.

When American colonists declared independence from England in 1776, they also freed themselves from control by English corporations that extracted their wealth and dominated trade. After fighting a revolution to end this exploitation, our country’s founders retained a healthy fear of corporate power and wisely limited corporations exclusively to a business role. Corporations were forbidden from attempting to influence elections, public policy, and other realms of civic society.

Initially, the privilege of incorporation was granted selectively to enable activities that benefited the public, such as construction of roads or canals. Here's an example of the kinds of laws that were on the books:
◾Corporate charters (licenses to exist) were granted for a limited time and could be revoked promptly for violating laws.
◾Corporations could engage only in activities necessary to fulfill their chartered purpose.
◾Corporations could not own stock in other corporations nor own any property that was not essential to fulfilling their chartered purpose.
◾Corporations were often terminated if they exceeded their authority or caused public harm.
◾Owners and managers were responsible for criminal acts committed on the job.
◾Corporations could not make any political or charitable contributions nor spend money to influence law-making.
Individual states regulated corporations even further.

For 100 years after the American Revolution, legislators maintained tight controll of the corporate chartering process. Because of widespread public opposition, early legislators granted very few corporate charters, and only after debate. Citizens governed corporations by detailing operating conditions not just in charters but also in state constitutions and state laws. Incorporated businesses were prohibited from taking any action that legislators did not specifically allow.

If these very same laws were to be proposed today, after the establishment of Corporate Personhood (which is one of the worst rulings in American history), everyone would be accusing the those proposing such measures of being for big government. They'd be screaming against government regulation, growth of government power, and labeling people supporting the measures "Socialist". This libertarian myth about our Founding Fathers and our early history is nothing but that, a myth.

One of the most severe blows to government authority over corporations arose out of the 1886 Supreme Court case of Santa Clara County v. Southern Pacific Railroad. Though the court did not make a ruling on the question of “corporate personhood,” thanks to misleading notes of a clerk, the decision subsequently was used as precedent to hold that a corporation was a “natural person.” This story was detailed in “The Theft of Human Rights,” a chapter in Thom Hartmann’s recommended book Unequal Protection.

From that point on, the 14th Amendment (enacted to protect rights of freed slaves) was used routinely to grant corporations constitutional “personhood.” Justices have since struck down hundreds of local, state and federal laws enacted to protect people from corporate harm based on this illegitimate premise. Armed with these “rights,” corporations increased control over resources, jobs, commerce, politicians, even judges and the law.

In actuality, those of us who are for limiting corporate power and regulating corporations are only following after the spirit of our Founding Fathers.

Corporate charters were eventually rejected because they resembled too much the mercantilist policies of the British that led to the American Revolution. They were used by corporatist elitists within government to stifle competition.

Again, you prove you even view history through communist lenses. You applaud government interference like government charters when the motive behind them was to stifle economic liberty. And you want to go back to that?
Furthermore, these were policies of the Federalists and Whig types, not of Jeffersonian Republicans. The Jeffersonians objected to the Hamiltonian takeover of the country by using the Federal institutions to allow northern industry to rule by proxy. You further made the ridiculous claim that those advocating small government are trying to rip people off. Please don't come to me now offering a twisted view of history.
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  #22  
Old 04-19-2017, 03:33 PM
Jito463 Jito463 is offline
J.esus i.s t.he o.ne God (463)


 
Join Date: May 2013
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Re: Libertarian for universal healthcare!!

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Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
Of course he wants them to have a choice, he supports the hucksters that will swindle them.
That was obnoxious and completely out of line. No one here wants to see anyone swindled.

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Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
I'm for cracking down on Medicare fraud.
So, you're fine with the existence of fraud in government, because that can be dealt with; but if there's fraud in the private sector, suddenly every corporation is a scam artist and a thief that wants to steal your money? In the immortal words of BB, 'Ehhh, what a maroon!'.

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Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
My mother-in-law is 79 and she has not had a problem with seeing the doctor of her choice. Nor has she had an issue with something Medicare wouldn't cover.

Oh, they can get an outside provider. But Medicare won't pay for it. But it is a matter of doctors choosing to participate. It isn't big bad Medicare who prevents them from seeing a given doctor. Mary has never had a problem with not having coverage or time frames. All of this is conflated mumbo jumbo. Most older folk in my neck of the woods would actually like to see Medicare better funded and expanded. They are mortified by Trump's position on cutting Medicare.
My information was slightly mistaken, it's the doctors who are beholden to myriad rules and regulations regarding accepting out-of-pocket payments from Medicare enrollees, but that just serves to reinforce my point that government should have no part in our health care/insurance choices.

http://www.drjarodcarter.com/accepti...icare-patient/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
LOL! You're so spoiled. Living in a nation that has been free and prosperous for a generation because of liberal policies... gonna turn around and curse the very principles that created the middle class. Does it make you feel tough? But here's the problem... if the government isn't there to ensure that regulations are in place to protect you're little anarchist self, you'll get pistol whipped and robbed by unchecked corporate powers... and you won't have a vote concerning what they choose to do to you, your wages, or society at large. A corporatocacy is even worse than a pure democracy.
And you're delusional. Liberal/progressive policies serve to stifle freedom and individuality.

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Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
The reason why conservatives want less government and regulation is the same reason that organized crime and thugs want fewer cops.
Yet another moronic thing to say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
There is a lot of myth about the Founding Fathers. Did you know that our Founding Fathers imposed rather strong laws upon corporations? In fact, these laws continued, and were added to for nearly the first 100 years of our Republic.
You always do this. Every time someone (including myself) brings up the founding fathers and their view of limited government, you immediately change the subject to corporations. You cannot bring yourself to accept the fact that the founders viewed government as a necessary evil only.

Liberals (Republican or Democrat) are the party of big government, which is the antithesis of what this country was founded upon. Conservatives are the party of smaller government.
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Sometimes hidden dangers spring on us suddenly. Those are out of our control. But when one can see the danger, and then refuses to arrest , all in the name of "God is in control", they are forfeiting God given, preventive opportunities.
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  #23  
Old 04-19-2017, 03:46 PM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: Libertarian for universal healthcare!!

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Originally Posted by Originalist View Post
You further made the ridiculous claim that those advocating small government are trying to rip people off. Please don't come to me now offering a twisted view of history.
Maybe you guys aren't trying to rip people off. You've just bought into the lie like well meaning "true believers" that if you deregulate and shrink the government everyone will play nice.

Here's an example of the stupidity....

The Republican Congress used this argument claiming that Obama-era FCC rules were too encumbersome and were an unwarranted expansion of government power over private ISPs. They claimed such regulations expanded government authority over the internet and made a big to-do about how this only entangles our internet usage with the government. They even pointed out that Facebook and Google aren't regulated like the ISPs. All the conservatives hooted and clapped like ignorant seals on an iceberg and supported the measure to repeal the internet regulations.

What did they do on March 28, 2017??? They successfully repealed the regulations.

Now, broadband providers like AT&T, Comcast, and others will be able to sell your personal information and browsing history to the highest bidder without notifying you and without your permission. And no one will be able to protect you, not even the Federal Trade Commission that conservatives keep talking about.

Deregulation. You got your smaller government right there. Feel "left alone" now???
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