Refuting Christian Zionism

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

So, Israel is not punished at all in the trib in your view?

I'm not a futurist. I'm just pointing out you've broadbrushed the futurists as being dispensationalists.

God does not hammer anyone to repentance. Chastisement is not hammering them like Israel will get it in that teaching.

"Hammering" is a subjective non Biblical term. Let's say that God brings punishment on nations - particularly Israel - for their sins, as a means of applying pressure to motivate them to repentance. The book of Judges is a textbook example and case study in just that concept.

And, "that teaching" as you referenced is not premillennialism, nor is it futurism, but rather dispensationalism.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Esaias

You may not be an eschatological or theological Zionist, but you are politically pro-Zionist. The modern nation of Israel is the most sane nation in the region? Are you kidding me? They do and support everything Americans generally rail against as evil. Apartheid, supporting terrorist groups, destabilizing secular Arab governments, promoting the so called refugee crises, supporting forced settlement of millions of Muslims in Europe and North America while whole heartedly rejecting those same policies for their own, etc?

If anything, they are just as wacko and dangerous as any other Middle Eastern country.

Most of those are not "official" positions of the government there, nor of the people. I still take them any day over what is around them. But on the other hand, I will not kiss their......big toe nor clamor all over them like Evangelicals do.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Most of those are not "official" positions of the government there, nor of the people. I still take them any day over what is around them. But on the other hand, I will not kiss their......big toe nor clamor all over them like Evangelicals do.

Have you been there?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I'm not a futurist. I'm just pointing out you've broadbrushed the futurists as being dispensationalists.

No, I am talking premillennialists. I did not say dispensationalists with this point.

Hammering" is a subjective non Biblical term. Let's say that God brings punishment on nations - particularly Israel - for their sins, as a means of applying pressure to motivate them to repentance.

My point was is that what happens in the tribulation?

The book of Judges is a textbook example and case study in just that concept.

And, "that teaching" as you referenced is not premillennialism, nor is it futurism, but rather dispensationalism.

So, to get this clear, is Israel punished in your view in the trib or no?

[aegsm76]

When I saw the thread title I thought CO was back.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

No, I am talking premillennialists. I did not say dispensationalists with this point.



My point was is that what happens in the tribulation?

What tribulation? The fake futurist tribulation? Or the Biblical one?

So, to get this clear, is Israel punished in your view in the trib or no?

Jerusalem was punished because the representatives of Israel joined with the heathen to murder the Christ. So punishment is certainly a part of tribulation. Tribulation is expressly promised to Israel if they sin (Deut 28), and indeed upon EVERY SOUL who sins against God (Romans 2:9).

It is ALSO promised to those who follow Christ (John 16:33).

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

What tribulation? The fake futurist tribulation? Or the Biblical one?

Do you believe there is a specific future tribulation with antichrist, etc., immediately before the millennium or not?

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Have you been there?

Do I have to have been to a place to research it? That's like saying I cannot preach from the Bible since I have not been to the lands it mentions.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Do I have to have been to a place to research it? That's like saying I cannot preach from the Bible since I have not been to the lands it mentions.

Good grief. Makes me likely to give up on forums altogether. DID I SAY YOU CAN'T HAVE AN OPINION OR CAN'T SPEAK ABOUT A COUNTRY IF YOU HAVEN'T BEEN THERE?????

DOES ANYONE ACTUALLY READ WHAT THEY RESPOND TO ANYMORE??

I just asked if you had ever been there. If you said "yes" I was going to ask about your experiences. If you said "no" I was going to refer to others' experiences there (good and bad).

Try not to jump to unwarranted conclusions.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Do you believe there is a specific future tribulation with antichrist, etc., immediately before the millennium or not?

Are you seriously asking me this question? If you are serious, it really makes me question some things.

You are basically asking me if I am a futurist.

And I'm like "Really? You're asking me this? How long have we talked about prophecy?"

Or do you actually believe the historical interpretation of prophecy includes a future tribulation and a future Antichrist? If that's the case, then whew! I have to go back to square one and clear things up with you about the differences between futurism and historicism.

But, just to help everyone out, I do NOT believe Antichrist is "yet to come", there are many antichrists and have been since the first century according to John.

I believe tribulation for the saints has been a fact of life from Abel's time and will be until Jesus returns.

I believe the "time of great tribulation" mentioned in Matthew 24 referred primarily if not completely to events in the first century.

Daniel's seventieth week was completed with no gaps yet to be fulfilled.

This is all historicism 101.