Quote:
Originally Posted by Halieus
This sounds reasonable. But I'm not sure this view can be maintained in light of the entire context of the Gospel of John.
I've been reading the Gospel of John a lot this past year. If you carefully read the entire Gospel through chapter 17, ideally in one sitting, taking what Jesus says about his preexistence at face value, and interpreting things that John the Baptist and the Evangelist say about Jesus's preexistence, then I don't see how John 17.5 can be interpreted as meaning anything but that Jesus will be actually returning to the place of glory he had actually occupied in the presence of the Father before descending from heaven and becoming incarnate to do the Father's will. The resurrection and ascension are a part of his glory, specifically his returning to that place of exalted honor in the presence of the Father in heaven that he had occupied from all eternity.
I posted a discussion of some verses from John earlier in this thread. Also, if you're interested, I started a thread in the debate section in the Godhead folder about the Gospel of John and Oneness, specifically the difficulties this book presents for Oneness. I would appreciate your feedback. |
It would appear, that in context, Jesus is not speaking from the standpoint of deity. In
John 17:3 He states clearly:
(
Joh 17:3 KJV) And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Apparently to Jesus, the Father is the ONLY true God... Thus, it is clear He is speaking from a human viewpoint.
Again, in context, Jesus begins this prayer by stating:
(
Joh 17:1 KJV) These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
THE hour is come. Which hour? The hour of His sacrifice on the cross. Therefore, he was speaking as the lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
John 1:1 has been mentioned. The word logos means more than just the spoken word. Although, it encompasses this. Specifically, it encompasses all of the thoughts behind the spoken word. This suggests that before the world was created God knew Adam would fall and created a way of escape (the logos - the lamb) before Adam was created.
To argue that this means a separate existence with the Father as a living entity prior to the incarnation demands that Jesus be something other than deity. This clearly contradicts scripture. He is Emmanuel - God with us. He was with us in the flesh (
1 Jn. 4;1-3). He is God and man united in such a way as to neither confound nor confuse the dual natures. There is NO scientific explanation because the incarnation defies the laws of nature - He was born of a virgin.
Laws are subject to those who give them and everything that is governed by them are subordinate to those laws. Thus Jesus, as a man, was subject to the laws of nature because He was a man and as a man subject to time and space. He grew in knowledge, became hungry and slept. As such this man was subordinate to the Father - He came to do the Father's will and not His own.
Luke records the agony of Gethsemane. This is a picture of the humanity. Father, let this cup pass from Him; nevertheless, not my will but thy will be done.
This demonstrates the fallacy of Trinitarianism (coequal etc.). If Jesus is perfect (He certainly was) then how could there be a battle of wills? This battle of wills suggests a disharmony between the two wills. It is fatal to Trinitarian claims of co-equality in the godhead for this demands a disharmony within the deity - an impossibility which proves the fallacy of the doctrine.
Angels strengthened Him (
Luke 22:44). Does deity require strength from its creation? Of course NOT. Humanity, on the other hand, does require strengthening.
John chapter 17:5, or any verse, cannot not be understood in a vacuum. It must be understood in its context which includes the entirety of scripture. To ignore the plain teaching of scripture in favor of an esoteric interpretation by isolating scripture from the entirety of scripture is hazardous at best and at worst, to lead astray.
Jesus is the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. John was dealing with Gnosticism, the historical context, and used language to reveal the fallacy of their Christology - Christ was a phantom being. John demonstrates the very real humanity of Jesus while maintaining His heavenly origin. He is Emmanuel - God with us. Specifically, The one God of
Deu. 6:4 tabernacling (
Jn. 1:14) among us. The "man" Christ was the tabernacle made without hands that God Himself used to walk among us.
Jesus is the one God who condescended to live life as a man to save humanity from the curse of sin. Judgement demanded the sacrifice of a man. Therefore, God did what no one else could ever do. He forsook His divine prerogatives to live life as a man to become the lamb of God.
Heaven was not empty when Christ walked the earth. No physical tabernacle could ever contain the infinite deity. Yet, Christ is the fulness of deity in bodily form who made Himself no reputation (kenosis) and took upon Himself the form of man.
Kenosis means literally to empty Himself. He never ceased to be God - He ceased to assert His divinity in order to fulfill the requirement of judgment.
John 17 demonstrates the humanity of Jesus Christ - how there is ONE true God and one Jesus Christ - the one God who emptied Himself of divine prerogatives to live life as a man in order to be the lamb slain from the foundation of the world - the glory of the logos of God.
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