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  #21  
Old 02-25-2015, 08:38 PM
Jason B Jason B is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whoiskaiser77 View Post

If you don't have the heart to follow, you won't have the heart to lead.
While this contains truth, its also wide open to abuse.

This kind of logic is what got hundreds of people to drink the kool-aid.......literally.
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"Resolved: That all men should live to the glory of God. Resolved, secondly: That whether or not anyone else does, I will." ~Jonathan Edwards

"The only man who has the right to say he is justified by grace alone is the man who has left all to follow Christ." ~Dietrich Bonheoffer, The Cost of Discipleship

"Preachers who should be fishing for men are now too often fishing for compliments from men." ~Leonard Ravenhill
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  #22  
Old 02-25-2015, 08:40 PM
whoiskaiser77 whoiskaiser77 is offline
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Re: Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Badejo View Post
Who said it wasn't?

Hebrews 12:14 NLT
Work at living in peace with everyone, and work at living a holy life, for those who are not holy will not see the Lord.
Don't worry about it.
I don't think you and your family are Apostolic yet, right?
That's ok. Keep trusting in the Lord and He will open your eyes to all of the truths of His Word.

Stay encouraged!
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  #23  
Old 02-25-2015, 08:59 PM
allstate1 allstate1 is offline
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Re: Standards

I could give dozens of examples. The problem people like me have is that standards have fluctuated and change based on who knows what. What was a sin (organized sports) when I was in high school suddenly is OK when the pastors grandkids wanna play baseball. Secular music is a sin but the pastors daughter and music leader is obsessed with and regularly attends Michael Buble concerts. The man that attends almost every service helps with cameras and sound is addicted to porn. And no one can explain that a woman must wear skirts or dresses down to at least the knee but a man can't wear shorts. These are really examples going on at this moment.

Last edited by allstate1; 02-25-2015 at 09:08 PM.
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  #24  
Old 02-25-2015, 09:05 PM
allstate1 allstate1 is offline
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Re: Standards

It will always be comical to me that holiness is equated to dress. Everything can be covered up with the uniform. Stop looking at holiness as an adjective and look at it as a verb. Appearance is modesty. Holiness is action!
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  #25  
Old 02-25-2015, 09:09 PM
whoiskaiser77 whoiskaiser77 is offline
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Re: Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by allstate1 View Post
It will always be comical to me that holiness is equated to dress. Everything can be covered up with the uniform. Stop looking at holiness as an adjective and look at it as a verb. Appearance is modesty. Holiness is action!
How you dress is an action and is part of holiness.
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  #26  
Old 02-25-2015, 09:12 PM
Sean Sean is offline
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Re: Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abiding Now View Post
standard

noun stan·dard \ˈstan-dərd\

: a level of quality, achievement, etc., that is considered acceptable or desirable

standards : ideas about morally correct and acceptable behavior

: something that is very good and that is used to make judgments about the quality of other things

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/standard



1. Who sets the standards in a church?

The elders of a church(men and women) must set the standards. This is the expectation of the Apostles. The elders are "spiritual leaders" and include all seasoned saints to be the example of modesty to the new believers.

2. Can "extra-Biblical" standards be required of church members

Yes. This includes shunning modern worldly sins that were not mentioned in the Bible.

3. Is compliance to mandatory standards fair?
No, we must teach the saints to WALK IN THE SPIRIT, not just give them a list of do's and dont's. If they are walking in the Spirit, they are soon qualifying to be an elder themselves and the Lord will teach them modesty.(with our example)

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  #27  
Old 02-25-2015, 09:14 PM
Jason B Jason B is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whoiskaiser77 View Post

Don't worry about it.
I don't think you and your family are Apostolic yet, right?
That's ok. Keep trusting in the Lord and He will open your eyes to all of the truths of His Word.

Stay encouraged!
I left the UPC and oneness Pentecostalism over 4 years ago. The Lord has opened my eyes to Biblical salvation and especially the work of Christ on the cross and all that means for believers. And what it means to trust in the righteousness of Christ imputed to us, rather than trying to establish our own righteousness.

But thank you, I hope to stay encouraged.
__________________
"Resolved: That all men should live to the glory of God. Resolved, secondly: That whether or not anyone else does, I will." ~Jonathan Edwards

"The only man who has the right to say he is justified by grace alone is the man who has left all to follow Christ." ~Dietrich Bonheoffer, The Cost of Discipleship

"Preachers who should be fishing for men are now too often fishing for compliments from men." ~Leonard Ravenhill
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  #28  
Old 02-25-2015, 09:18 PM
allstate1 allstate1 is offline
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Re: Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by whoiskaiser77 View Post
How you dress is an action and is part of holiness.
Nope. Show me a scripture where holiness and dress is mentioned together
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  #29  
Old 02-25-2015, 09:26 PM
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Charnock Charnock is offline
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Re: Standards

Something a really good friend of mine wrote recently...

https://www.facebook.com/theministry...38241382861647

Why I Am No Longer a Oneness Pentecostal: Part 2
E.L. Anglin

A standard is "an idea or thing used as a measure, norm, or model in comparative evaluations." (Webster) We have standards for everything from credit worthiness to restaurant cleanliness. The extent to which one meets those standards is directly related to one's worth to those who set the standards.

Standards are good for secular society but are they good for the church?
It's no accident that Oneness Pentecostal pioneers used the word "standards" to describe the way they wanted people to dress and act. They set the standard based upon their own personal preferences. Their expectations. Their model of what holiness should look like.

Over time standard-setting became somewhat of a competitive sport. No pastor wanted to be viewed as loose, or "weak on the message," so the bar was consistently raised. New "old paths" arrived which banned jewelry, make-up, TV, radio, the color red, sports, comic books, theaters, mixed swimming and otherwise innocuous items and activities.

Today one's salvation is attached to one's adherence to standards. Meet all but one and you are as lost as a rank sinner. To make matters worse standards are somewhat fluid within each church. There's a standard for new people, a standard for seasoned saints, and a standard for those "on the platform."

My mother struggled with church standards. Eventually she left the movement because no matter how hard she tried she never felt good enough. What good was Christianity if every day was yet filled with fear of Hell?

That's the danger in church standards. The whole system is based upon visible physical measurements. It's based upon comparisons between people instead of God. Flawed men set expectations higher than God's. The end result is never-ending guilt because no one can ever measure up.

Oneness Pentecostal measurements extend beyond physical appearances. They hold a very distinct soteriology (doctrine of salvation) that is based upon its own set of measurements. Salvation is not obtained "by grace through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) but by completing three steps: repentance, baptism and tongues.

A future post will deal with the soteriology of the movement but consider for just a moment the words "with the initial evidence of speaking in other tongues." How often have you heard that in your lifetime? It's always used in reference to the baptism of the Holy Ghost. Guess how many times that phrase appears in the Bible? That's right, zero.

Why the focus on an initial evidence? Why is evidence needed? Especially when “faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things NOT seen?” (Hebrews 11:1)

In my opinion, it's because the entire movement is built upon what flesh accomplishes rather than what Spirit provides. It's about measurements.
Speaking in tongues is something we can see and hear. It’s tangible. It’s "initial evidence" that you measure up.

Faith, on the other hand, it mocked as “easy believism.” Grace is often referred to a something dirty (greasy grace). Why? Because faith and grace are not always visible. They are unseen. They can’t be measured.

In my last post I mentioned that I’ve heard many times that those who leave standards eventually leave basic Oneness Pentecostal soteriology. In my previous life I wondered why. Now I know.

At some point I wearied of working and started trusting.

I realized the same God whom I trusted to make me holy has the power to keep me holy. I cannot save myself, not matter how hard I try.

Only Jesus saves.
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I'm (sic) not cynical, I just haven't been around long enough to be Jedi mind-tricked by politics as usual. Alas, maybe in a few years I'll be beaten back into the herd. tstew
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  #30  
Old 02-25-2015, 09:27 PM
allstate1 allstate1 is offline
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Re: Standards

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Badejo View Post
I left the UPC and oneness Pentecostalism over 4 years ago. The Lord has opened my eyes to Biblical salvation and especially the work of Christ on the cross and all that means for believers. And what it means to trust in the righteousness of Christ imputed to us, rather than trying to establish our own righteousness.

But thank you, I hope to stay encouraged.
When one understands the true and complete work of Calvary..................
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