Recovering the Apostolic Way

[Jake1611]

Originally Posted by kingdomapostle

We disagree. Blessings to you as well.

Take care..till next time...

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by Jake1611

I mentioned extra because of the significant of the original 12. Theirs was a special one time mission: to lay the foundation of the church which can only be done once. We cannot lay another foundation. Also, there are very specific qualifications to be an apostle. One had to have been with Jesus or witnessed the resurrection, just to name two. Although Paul came on the scene late, he was visited by the resurrected Christ and singled out for a very important mission: to preach to the Gentiles. Paul said of himself that he was born out of time.

Jake

You mentioned there are specific qualifications to be an apostle. Where do you get this? Please give me scripture and verse where it say one had to be a witness to the resurection of Christ and to have been with Christ to be an apostle. The statement of being born out of time does not have anything to do with his being or not being a apostle.

This is the problem in many doctrines, to much teaching from an idea taken from one verse to another pulling them out of contex to teach something that has very little to do with the original context of the verse.

Example: Many have taken the qualification given to Timothy and Titus of the office of Bishop to be the qualifications for one or all of the 5 fold ministry. This is taking the meaning of the whole out of context. If Paul was speaking of the gifts of the spirit including the five fold ministry. He would have said so. Bishops are elders in the church chosen by those in the body for thier good conduct, to be administrative overseers to the things in the body that have nothing to do with spiritual leadership. The spiritual leadership was and always has been the parents in the home. Period. This was and has been the command from God given to the Isrealites when they left Egypt. Paul teaches this in Ephesians and Corintians where he tells us the head of man is Chirst and the head of the women is the man.

While I don't expect any one to see this right off, as it took me several years of getting beyond the traditions and philosophys I have been taught my whole life to see a clear picture of how God truly wants his church to run.

I do have to voice what I feel God has shown me for if I did not I would be in disobediance to the word of God.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by kingdomapostle

What does that have to do with this post? Just curious.

Form follows function. The church has become more like a business enterprise... because it essentially functions like one. Instead of being a spiritual family focused on spiritual things... pastors are focused on money and property. It becomes a consuming responsibility demanding more and more of leadership's focus.

I've heard more than a few churches speak of the "good ol' days" when they began in the home of an elder or saint of God. There was close fellowship. Solid discipleship. They had no programs... but they had spiritual family. They voiced their needs and shared their very lives and possessions. If a sister's car broke down, someone would lend her a car. If a brother needed lawn mower, another brother was ready to lend his own. If grieving they didn't have to schedule a meeting with a busy executive pastor. They voiced it there in the circle of believers in a living room. When one wept, they all wept. When one rejoiced, they all rejoiced.

When they finally got property things "changed".

We often worship our church properties and don't even realize it. The modern structure of the church with it's salaries and properties affect the very functionality of ministry. It marches believers into the pews, a row of noses to hear a sermon. The pastor preaches a "monologue" and there is some shouting and music. But no real depth. The traditional church is a mile wide... and an inch deep.

In our house church... we might only be a small body... but it gets VERY deep in those meetings. Sometimes we'll change it up and have church at a coffee shop, a park, or the court house square... just to get out and bring people into the conversation about Jesus.

[Jake1611]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Jake

You mentioned there are specific qualifications to be an apostle. Where do you get this? Please give me scripture and verse where it say one had to be a witness to the resurection of Christ and to have been with Christ to be an apostle. The statement of being born out of time does not have anything to do with his being or not being a apostle.

This is the problem in many doctrines, to much teaching from an idea taken from one verse to another pulling them out of contex to teach something that has very little to do with the original context of the verse.

Example: Many have taken the qualification given to Timothy and Titus of the office of Bishop to be the qualifications for one or all of the 5 fold ministry. This is taking the meaning of the whole out of context. If Paul was speaking of the gifts of the spirit including the five fold ministry. He would have said so. Bishops are elders in the church chosen by those in the body for thier good conduct, to be administrative overseers to the things in the body that have nothing to do with spiritual leadership. The spiritual leadership was and always has been the parents in the home. Period. This was and has been the command from God given to the Isrealites when they left Egypt. Paul teaches this in Ephesians and Corintians where he tells us the head of man is Chirst and the head of the women is the man.

While I don't expect any one to see this right off, as it took me several years of getting beyond the traditions and philosophys I have been taught my whole life to see a clear picture of how God truly wants his church to run.

I do have to voice what I feel God has shown me for if I did not I would be in disobediance to the word of God.

Hi Godsdrummer. Its been my experience that when someone asks to be shown the verses and yet their minds are already made up, what they are really looking for is to debate. I am not interested in that. If you study the NT you will see why only the original 12 qualified and why only they were chosen by Christ to lay the foundation of his church. Paul was the only exception and he explains why.

Blessings to you in your study of God's word.

[kingdomapostle]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Form follows function. The church has become more like a business enterprise... because it essentially functions like one. Instead of being a spiritual family focused on spiritual things... pastors are focused on money and property. It becomes a consuming responsibility demanding more and more of leadership's focus.

I've heard more than a few churches speak of the "good ol' days" when they began in the home of an elder or saint of God. There was close fellowship. Solid discipleship. They had no programs... but they had spiritual family. They voiced their needs and shared their very lives and possessions. If a sister's car broke down, someone would lend her a car. If a brother needed lawn mower, another brother was ready to lend his own. If grieving they didn't have to schedule a meeting with a busy executive pastor. They voiced it there in the circle of believers in a living room. When one wept, they all wept. When one rejoiced, they all rejoiced.

When they finally got property things "changed".

We often worship our church properties and don't even realize it. The modern structure of the church with it's salaries and properties affect the very functionality of ministry. It marches believers into the pews, a row of noses to hear a sermon. The pastor preaches a "monologue" and there is some shouting and music. But no real depth. The traditional church is a mile wide... and an inch deep. In our house church... we might only be a small body... but it gets VERY deep in those meetings. Sometimes we'll change it up and have church at a coffee shop, a park, or the court house square... just to get out and bring people into the conversation about Jesus.

Preaching to the choir. I don't like assumptions. Also, I hope I'm not reading that you feel the house church is the "deep way" and the only biblical way to do things because we disagree their too. Both are effective when they are operated by the leading of the Spirit of God. Remember, ONE Spirit, so your way CAN'T be the ONLY way the Spirit is leading.

[kingdomapostle]

Originally Posted by Jake1611

Hi Godsdrummer. Its been my experience that when someone asks to be shown the verses and yet their minds are already made up, what they are really looking for is to debate. I am not interested in that. If you study the NT you will see why only the original 12 qualified and why only they were chosen by Christ to lay the foundation of his church. Paul was the only exception and he explains why.

Blessings to you in your study of God's word.

Don't assume everyone who questions what you believe and asks for scripture is looking for a debate.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by kingdomapostle

Preaching to the choir. I don't like assumptions. Also, I hope I'm not reading that you feel the house church is the "deep way" and the only biblical way to do things because we disagree their too. Both are effective when they are operated by the leading of the Spirit of God. Remember, ONE Spirit, so your way CAN'T be the ONLY way the Spirit is leading.

Amen. I agree.

The church I attend is regarded as a network of house churches. Each house church is autonomous. We have our own elders, plan evangelistic trips, missions trips, activities, or do charity work independently of one another. Sometimes we'll fellowship another house church in our region on an endevour. The house church comprises our midweek gatherings.

On Sunday mornings all of the house churches in the network gather in a larger sanctuary just South of Town for what we call "Sunday Gathering". There is a band, great music, free coffee, free bagels, often books and materials given away. There is also AWESOME teaching. Our senior elder, Pastor Rob, is well educated in the Scriptures and sensitive to the Spirit of God. He teaches in a way I've never seen. He doesn't pick a topic, then choose a passage, or texts to help teach about it. He studies the Bible "book by book". Starting this past January Rob launched us into the Gospel of John. We're covering EVERY VERSE. The time table he offered states that we'll be in John for the better part of two years. It's the end of June... and we're only half way through John chapter 5! LOL

And the interesting thing is... it seems to ALWAYS speak to a situation in our lives, or answer a theological question that has been brewing in our minds. Talk about divine providence.

But know this... even if this community of believers becomes so focused on our internal politics, money, and property that exemplifying Christ fades... I'm gone. I just want to be conformed into the image of Christ. I value no "membership" down here. And I'm prone to support strictly house churching... but I'm willing to keep balance. After all... God uses the bigger gatherings too. I just feel more "transformation" happening in the house churches where people let down their guard, confess sin, cry, and pray together. Where relationships are made.

[kingdomapostle]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Amen. I agree.

The church I attend is regarded as a network of house churches. Each house church is autonomous. We have our own elders, plan evangelistic trips, missions trips, activities, or do charity work independently of one another. Sometimes we'll fellowship another house church in our region on an endevour. The house church comprises our midweek gatherings.

On Sunday mornings all of the house churches in the network gather in a larger sanctuary just South of Town for what we call "Sunday Gathering". There is a band, great music, free coffee, free bagels, often books and materials given away. There is also AWESOME teaching. Our senior elder, Pastor Rob, is well educated in the Scriptures and sensitive to the Spirit of God. He teaches in a way I've never seen. He doesn't pick a topic, then choose a passage, or texts to help teach about it. He studies the Bible "book by book". Starting this past January Rob launched us into the Gospel of John. We're covering EVERY VERSE. The time table he offered states that we'll be in John for the better part of two years. It's the end of June... and we're only half way through John chapter 5! LOL

And the interesting thing is... it seems to ALWAYS speak to a situation in our lives, or answer a theological question that has been brewing in our minds. Talk about divine providence.

But know this... even if this community of believers becomes so focused on our internal politics, money, and property that exemplifying Christ fades... I'm gone. I just want to be conformed into the image of Christ. I value no "membership" down here. And I'm prone to support strictly house churching... but I'm willing to keep balance. After all... God uses the bigger gatherings too. I just feel more "transformation" happening in the house churches where people let down their guard, confess sin, cry, and pray together. Where relationships are made.

GREAT! If that's what works for you, then I say more power to you.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by kingdomapostle

GREAT! If that's what works for you, then I say more power to you.

Our house church began in Hebrews this January. We're in chapter 7 so far. Bro. Bowers moves a bit faster than Rob. But the study is very deep. And discussion time always brings far more into the picture than just the text we're covering.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by Jake1611

Hi Godsdrummer. Its been my experience that when someone asks to be shown the verses and yet their minds are already made up, what they are really looking for is to debate. I am not interested in that. If you study the NT you will see why only the original 12 qualified and why only they were chosen by Christ to lay the foundation of his church. Paul was the only exception and he explains why.

Blessings to you in your study of God's word.

Jake
Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

2000 years after the church began traditions and philosophy's of men have crept into the simplicity of the message for the uplifting of man and not Christ. Yes I have a far different view of things then you have as I have found when one does not pick and pull a verse here and there to teach a thought but sticks with the context of the whole letter written to one group ie Romans or Corinthians and reads it as a whole instead of taking part of the book and fitting it with part of another book to bring forth a point, the message changes dramaticly.

What I am going to say next I hope you don't take too much offense at. But anyone that will not back up what they beleive and will not discuse with others differance of opinions has aready made up in thier mind that what they believe is the only way and are therefore in a grave position of missing a truth that can bring greater light to thier walk with God and relationship with him.

And for the record there is not one passage that gives a discription of an apostle where it tells us the only ones that can be apostles were those that saw Christ. By definition and apostle was simply one that was sent. At what point did the diciples become apostles? When Christ sent them into the world Acts I:8 hence one that is sent. As has been mentioned many others were to become apostles as they were sent to places to take the gospel to other parts of the world.

Every gift that was given to the early church to equip the saint to do thier ministerial work is still in the body of Chirst today.

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the equiping of the saints, for the work of thier ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: