World Changers

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by A.W. Bowman

This will be my last post for a while on this forum.

Since the thrust of the discussion has moved from the events of the day, to end-time theology, let me suggest an excellent reference article, THE SEVENTY WEEKS OF DANIEL

Ill, see ya kids over on my boards, should you make it there.

Shalom

Art

While one is reading one might take the time to also read "the 70th week of Daniel" by Larry Smith http://www.rightlydividingtheword.com

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by BroMatt

Hi

You wrote ,"neither are there prophecies that pertain to us today, they are all history"

Isa 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
Isa 11:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
Isa 11:8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. .

Let me throw a question back at you, Do you see this as something that will be happen lituraly on this earth? Compare you ideas with Rev 21-22.
Please explain how this prophecy is history or has already been completed

[Godsdrummer]

Matt

There are a couple of things I have come to understand with clearity in my life. One was the divinity of God what most onensess call the oneness of the Godhead. The other is the understanding of what many call end time events. Starting in my late teens I strugeled with understanding end time, I knew in my heart there was an answer to all my questions. I read and studied till I was blue in the face and could not come to grips with end time prophecy as I was taught. I was pre-tib through and through. In my heart I knew I was missing something though. I came upon by chance a study that showed all Daniels 70 weeks being fulfilled with the time of Christ. This was the first time I had ever heard this in 40+ years of my life. I reasoned this could not be true why had I not seen this before if it was true. I spent two to three years in study. I have the book "Of things to come" by Dwight Pentecost, I have had this book over 10 years and never even opened it. I literaly read through this book then went back over it several times comparing the various different teachings on end time. With all the arguments one way to the other I came to understand that, for myself at least Daniels 70 weeks could be infact fulfilled at the time of Christ.

I realized that if this were true then that would change the way I saw everthing. The eye opener, I could see all the scriptures I struggled with over the years fall into place in history. On top of that not only did God confirm this in my spirit, but over the last few years God has confirmed this in discution with others. This is not an understanding that comes over night for most as they have been so indoctrinated just as I had in the teachings of man.

The bottom line trying to get back to Arts original thought yes if the world has become worse it is our won fault as we have the power to bring change to our world. It is not as much as Gods judgment to all mankind as it is God's jugdment to our nation for turning from him and to our own self.

[BroMatt]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Let me throw a question back at you, Do you see this as something that will be happen lituraly on this earth? Compare you ideas with Rev 21-22.
Please explain how this prophecy is history or has already been completed

I am not saying this prophecy is history or already has been completed, it has NOT been completed nor is it history.

Yes, the lion WILL indeed lay down beside the lamb, on the earth, as this prophecy clearly states

Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

[BroMatt]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Matt

There are a couple of things I have come to understand with clearity in my life. One was the divinity of God what most onensess call the oneness of the Godhead. The other is the understanding of what many call end time events. Starting in my late teens I strugeled with understanding end time, I knew in my heart there was an answer to all my questions. I read and studied till I was blue in the face and could not come to grips with end time prophecy as I was taught. I was pre-tib through and through. In my heart I knew I was missing something though. I came upon by chance a study that showed all Daniels 70 weeks being fulfilled with the time of Christ. This was the first time I had ever heard this in 40+ years of my life. I reasoned this could not be true why had I not seen this before if it was true. I spent two to three years in study. I have the book "Of things to come" by Dwight Pentecost, I have had this book over 10 years and never even opened it. I literaly read through this book then went back over it several times comparing the various different teachings on end time. With all the arguments one way to the other I came to understand that, for myself at least Daniels 70 weeks could be infact fulfilled at the time of Christ.

I realized that if this were true then that would change the way I saw everthing. The eye opener, I could see all the scriptures I struggled with over the years fall into place in history. On top of that not only did God confirm this in my spirit, but over the last few years God has confirmed this in discution with others. This is not an understanding that comes over night for most as they have been so indoctrinated just as I had in the teachings of man.

The bottom line trying to get back to Arts original thought yes if the world has become worse it is our won fault as we have the power to bring change to our world. It is not as much as Gods judgment to all mankind as it is God's jugdment to our nation for turning from him and to our own self.

"for myself at least"

Here is the problem with your pushing all prophecy into completion and into history....it is NOT according to scripture.

2 Peter 1:20
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation

Revelation 1:19
Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

Revelation 22:19
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

As long as there is ANY future event spoken of by God that has not yet taken place, there remains yet prophecy to be fulfilled. A serious error was addressed because some had their faith overthrown with the claim that the resurrection was past. Since the resurrection is prophecied and has not yet happened, it is neither completed nor history.

2 Timothy 2:18
Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some

2000 years ago the Roman government was crucifying thousands, the Roman baths were naked and coed, and the guy on the throne was claiming he was god. The "world is worse" certainly depends on what frame of reference is used. Youtube has many tasteless videos, but thousands of videos of wonderful worship music and many great sermons being preached.

In many places, praise, worship, and prayer are going on 24/7, 365 days a year, and the bible is the best selling book in the world, and has been for a very long time.

"so indoctrinated just as I had in the teachings of man."

Dwight Pentecost is a man, and his book is his teachings, which it would appear you are indoctrinated in.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by BroMatt

"for myself at least"

Here is the problem with your pushing all prophecy into completion and into history....it is NOT according to scripture.

2 Peter 1:20
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation

Revelation 1:19
Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

Revelation 22:19
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

As long as there is ANY future event spoken of by God that has not yet taken place, there remains yet prophecy to be fulfilled. A serious error was addressed because some had their faith overthrown with the claim that the resurrection was past. Since the resurrection is prophecied and has not yet happened, it is neither completed nor history.

2 Timothy 2:18
Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some

2000 years ago the Roman government was crucifying thousands, the Roman baths were naked and coed, and the guy on the throne was claiming he was god. The "world is worse" certainly depends on what frame of reference is used. Youtube has many tasteless videos, but thousands of videos of wonderful worship music and many great sermons being preached.

In many places, praise, worship, and prayer are going on 24/7, 365 days a year, and the bible is the best selling book in the world, and has been for a very long time.

"so indoctrinated just as I had in the teachings of man."

Dwight Pentecost is a man, and his book is his teachings, which it would appear you are indoctrinated in.

I can tell by your oneside statements that you haven't got a clue. Don't mean to be mean spirited, but if you did you would take a little time to research what I said. Dwight Pentecost "Of things to come" was not one mans teaching of one subject it is a camparison of all teachings leaving the reader to come to his own conclusions. In most parts.

As for prophecy being or not being fulfilled. Not using the language of OT prophecy to interpret NT prophecy is putting your own interpretation to the word. Adding to and taking away as you see fit.

And you forget the passages you refer to were written before 70ad.

[BroMatt]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

I can tell by your oneside statements that you haven't got a clue. Don't mean to be mean spirited, but if you did you would take a little time to research what I said. Dwight Pentecost "Of things to come" was not one mans teaching of one subject it is a camparison of all teachings leaving the reader to come to his own conclusions. In most parts.

As for prophecy being or not being fulfilled. Not using the language of OT prophecy to interpret NT prophecy is putting your own interpretation to the word. Adding to and taking away as you see fit.

And you forget the passages you refer to were written before 70ad.

Maybe I don't have a clue, as you declare, but I am not the one that is placing prophecy into history and having been completed either.

Here is what I have learned over the past 35 years of reading the bible, many people make general statements that are just plain trash, and when you disagree with them and require scriptural references to establish truth, they attack your character by calling you lazy (take a little time to research), clueless (you haven't got a clue), forgetful (you forget the passages you refer to), and all the while being mean spirited while declaring that they don't mean to be mean spirited.

You have every right to come to your own conclusions (leaving the reader to come to his own conclusions) HOWEVER, mistaking your conclusions for truth is not something I wish to be a part of with you. You may indeed feel you have come to a great revelation and all the prophecy scriptures that troubled you are now dismissable due to your revelation, however I am not of the same mind.

Also, I have no idea what the following is supposed to mean, therefore validating your declaration that I don't have a clue...

As for prophecy being or not being fulfilled. Not using the language of OT prophecy to interpret NT prophecy is putting your own interpretation to the word. Adding to and taking away as you see fit.

[Godsdrummer]

I think that the following statment is self explainitory.

As for prophecy being or not being fulfilled. Not using the language of OT prophecy to interpret NT prophecy is putting your own interpretation to the word. Adding to and taking away as you see fit

But just for your sake let me try and make it more clear. Bible must be interpreted by bible. Understanding prophecy must be understood by comparing prophecy that has already come to pass. By studing the language use in OT we come to understand when symbolism is used and to read what is litural and what is symbolic or apocolyptic. As for the phrase "his holy mountain" does not speak of an earthly mountain but the heavenly kingdom or heaven and yes in heaven the wolf lays down with the lamb.

sa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.


As you quote from Rev. 1 put all things together. Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

[Jay]

I remember the late Bro. Westburg (former KS district Superintendent) once saying that he could not tell you what the little toe on the left foot of the statue in Daniel meant. The quote is as close as I can recall as I was only about 14 when it was said. I know that I have it fairly close.

I do not believe that any particular view of the coming of the Lord should be held to with such unfailing tenacity that we are distracted from our mission of reaching a lost and dying world for Jesus Christ. He is coming again just as He promised, and I want to be ready to meet Him, not matter when or where that time might occur. As one person once said, I might not get to see the rapture for He may call me home tonight.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by Jay

I remember the late Bro. Westburg (former KS district Superintendent) once saying that he could not tell you what the little toe on the left foot of the statue in Daniel meant. The quote is as close as I can recall as I was only about 14 when it was said. I know that I have it fairly close.

I do not believe that any particular view of the coming of the Lord should be held to with such unfailing tenacity that we are distracted from our mission of reaching a lost and dying world for Jesus Christ. He is coming again just as He promised, and I want to be ready to meet Him, not matter when or where that time might occur. As one person once said, I might not get to see the rapture for He may call me home tonight.

Just a couple of thoughts in relation to particular views, one end time dispinsationalist teachings generate fear to cause people to get saved. Fear is not a good bases of salvation. 2Ti 1:6 Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands.
2Ti 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

On another front, Dispinsational teaching, teaches that man life on earth is aproxemently 8 thousand years. 5 thousand years to the time of Christ, 2thousand years to the end time with a thousand years millinial reign. From this point of view dispinsationalist must change thier teaching as they have run out of time. As they have changed thier teaching over the last 40 years. After so many times of crying wolf this line of reasoning will no longer hold any weight as people will stop listening.