When Is Enough, Enough?

[oletime]

Someone get jd a left handed crutch . He is getting more like his hero" tecotus" everyday

[CC1]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Imagine the money we can save if gave every Doctor a shotgun and a pair of dice

LOL!!!! Funny but too much truth in that philosophy.

Once health care is publicly financed for everyone there will be an acceleration of Big Brother type government in the way of laws like the one CA is promoting now banning toys in Happy Meals to keep kids from wanting them. As if parents have no say in the matter.

We will have the Federal government telling us what we can eat or not eat which just amazes me. NYC has already banned oil with transfats from restaurants.

[pelathais]

Not knowing the details of the gentleman's medical condition nor what treatments were received makes it impossible to second guess the medical team.

Maybe we shouldn't be looking at this "expense" as an "investment." It was a cost. I hope hospitals don't ever get to the point that they're looking at every bandage and needle as an "investment" that is expected to produce returns.

The old vet served his nation, and even if he hadn't served in the military; he's still one of us citizens and deserves the highest levels of care. Knowing when to "pull the plug" or even when to suspend desperate measures and allow the patient's own body to determine the moment of death is a heart wrenching and agonizing thing.

I hope we will always err on the side of "too much" care. I can only imagine this thread if the old vet had been neglected, denied health care and left to die on the streets. Thankfully, that is not the country we live in.

[Pragmatist]

I actually think that Jermyn has a good point and this is one of the reasons health care is so expensive in this country. The culture is to always try everything possible to extend someone's life for any amount of time. I don't think the government should be making that decision, but maybe more doctors should kindly suggest letting someone go when the outlook isn't very good.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Pragmatist

I actually think that Jermyn has a good point and this is one of the reasons health care is so expensive in this country. The culture is to always try everything possible to extend someone's life for any amount of time. I don't think the government should be making that decision, but maybe more doctors should kindly suggest letting someone go when the outlook isn't very good.

Apparently going by the story, there was no family involved. The man entered the hospital under his own power...or maybe JD can give more details.

Many people actually don't keep their family member in the hospital for a long time knowing death is imminent and if death is imminent, like a day, why distress the man or his family by wheeling him out on a gurney to die at home?

That is what Hospices are for. Most families, if they have a family member that is dying and there is no hope they take them to a hospice or they take them home with a nurse that can visit and give meds if needed to ease pain.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Apparently going by the story, there was no family involved. The man entered the hospital under his own power...or maybe JD can give more details.

Many people actually don't keep their family member in the hospital for a long time knowing death is imminent and if death is imminent, like a day, why distress the man or his family by wheeling him out on a gurney to die at home?

That is what Hospices are for. Most families, if they have a family member that is dying and there is no hope they take them to a hospice or they take them home with a nurse that can visit and give meds if needed to ease pain.

Family was involved.

They wanted to keep him alive.


As far as they were concerned, the veteran has VA benefits for a reason-- at least that is the impression I have seeing that this man was in the hospital for two months and still died.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by Pragmatist

I actually think that Jermyn has a good point and this is one of the reasons health care is so expensive in this country. The culture is to always try everything possible to extend someone's life for any amount of time. I don't think the government should be making that decision, but maybe more doctors should kindly suggest letting someone go when the outlook isn't very good.

Thank you.

I really don't know how to come down on one side or the other over this.


There are just so many factors and so many people affected by whoever's decision to prolong this man's life when ultimately, he still died.

The family wanted him to live, but they had no intention of paying a dime towards his care because he was "covered" by the VA.

[SOUNWORTHY]

JD is this someone you know since you use the word "we' or have you turned French on us?

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Pragmatist

I actually think that Jermyn has a good point and this is one of the reasons health care is so expensive in this country. The culture is to always try everything possible to extend someone's life for any amount of time. I don't think the government should be making that decision, but maybe more doctors should kindly suggest letting someone go when the outlook isn't very good.

I'm facing something like that.
I have been diagnosed with an incurable lung condition.
It is treatable but not curable.
The only cure would be a lung transplant.
But, I'm 72 years old.
I had quadruple bypass surgery 15 years ago.
The life of a bypass is 10-12 years and I've already lasted 15 years.
3 of the 4 bypasses are still working.
I have Medicare plus United Health Care for a supplement.

Here are some questions I'm facing?
Should I continue treatment (costing Medicare and private insurance dollars) which will not cure?
Should a 72 year old man with 15 year old heart bypasses living on Social Security even be considered as a recipient of donated lungs as long as there are younger people with family and job responsibilities that could use donated lungs?

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

Today, I was told about a young man, in his early 60's who died.


This young man served his country well in the military.


However, this veteran did not have any health insurance at all.


He had health issues, but not any major or chronic illnesses that would logically lead him to an early death.


He went to the hospital back in February because he was feeling ill.


He didn't leave the hospital until a few days ago, when he left a dead man.


His hospital bills totalled nearly 1 MILLION DOLLARS, not including the fees for the doctors, specialists and techs who tried to keep him alive!

1 MILLION DOLLARS!!!

$1,000,000.00!!! PLUS FEES!!!




He did not have any health insurance, but he was registered with the VA.


The VA will foot this bill, but at a reduced rate.


We will probably reimburse the hospital around $180,000.00 and LEGALLY they aren't allowed to ask for more from us or from the family. This is the return they will receive on their MILLION DOLLAR INVESTMENT!


Even $180,000.00 for one veteran is a big chunk of money, especially for a VA system that is swamped with other chronically ill and dying veterans.



I questioned, as I tried to digest the magnitude of all of this:

When is enough, enough?


I mean, at one point do you let someone die?

I'm not talking about cases where there is unnecessary, untreatable pain and suffering.




The doctors knew he did not have insurance.


The hospital knew he did not have insurance.


The VA knew he did not have insurance.


Now everyone is grimmacing at their losses.



The hospital WILL NEVER recoup the money spent on trying to keep this guy alive, who ultimately died in spite of their efforts.

The same not-for-profit hospital that has lost so much money that staff has had to be relieved and preventative outreach programs for the poor have been completely eliminated.



If the hospital is going to take a huge loss, the doctors will too as the VA only reimburses so much for their time and services, but maybe they should be reimbursed less. After all, the veteran did die.

What were they thinking in racking up such a high bill on a guy that died anyway?

Where are the checks in balances to ensure that doctors don't prolong the inevitable?

If we can hold teachers accountable for their children's lack of learning, where is the difference in holding doctor's responsible for a patient's failure to thrive?

Reads harsh and I don't mean it to be-- but his bill came to close to 1 MILLION DOLLARS, not including the doctors' and specialists' fees!!!

Who is going to pay for all of that?

WHO IS GOING TO PAY FOR A DEAD MAN'S MEDICAL BILL? WHO LET IT BECOME SO EXPENSIVE AND WHY??


Unfortunately, no one, in this case. No one and everyone!



The Orlando VA has tens of thousands of chronically ill and dying veterans that are not going to die really soon. We are already turning everyone away for most services if they have any kind of private insurance.

If this veteran was going to die anyway, should we have spent $180,000.00 on him trying to keep him alive?




Of course, I know all of the "bleeding heart" answers to this scenario.

I already know that you can't put a price on a human life.



However, just because you can't put a price on a life, I am absolutely sure that spending 1 MILLION dollars on a guy for 2 months of hospital care only to have him die anyway is NOT SUSTAINABLE.




Leaving emotions out of this, maybe someone should have decided back in March. For this guy, enough is enough.


Whether the decision was made March 10 or April 22, the outcome was still the same.

April 22, 2010 was the day that everyone lost.

For the most part those decision should be made by the family, when there is no further medical action that will make any difference. Sometimes doctors will continue using every type of treat men available knowing full well that it is not going to help. Families should hold doctors to stop wasteful treatments, especially when it causes more suffering and no help. This is not mercy killing.

The decision to discontinue treatment is made by families and their doctors all the time. And that is as it should be.