DKBs 1st Test: Will He Uphold Manual w/ Craft?

[Sam]

Originally Posted by ChTatum

WPF is destined to fail.





Not a single Georgian listed on the council.

by Georgian, do you mean
someone from the state of Georgia located in the SE United States
or
someone from the country of Georgia in the Caucasus region of Eurasia, situated at the juncture of Eastern Europe and Western Asia, and surrounded by Russia, Turkey, and Azerbaijan?

[SOUNWORTHY]

Originally Posted by Sam

by Georgian, do you mean
someone from the state of Georgia located in the SE United States
or
someone from the country of Georgia in the Caucasus region of Eurasia, situated at the juncture of Eastern Europe and Western Asia, and surrounded by Russia, Turkey, and Azerbaijan?

YES!

[Sunni]

Very simply...

1.I do not know why he is still listed on the General Council (BTW-there is also another member on there that I am positive does not have WPF license.) Obviously, from my previous post, I was very candid about the fact that I didn't know and was merely speculating... I don't know- and don't care enough to ask .

2. Bro. Craft is NOT licensed with the WPF.

Feel free to take it or leave it. I don't need to call him and ask- I know. I am sure he would not mind you calling him and asking him either- he would most likely prefer it than us going back and forth about it anyway on a forum. He is a great man that I respect highly- WPF or UPC or whatever....

BTW- there is a pastor in GA that fellowships with the WPF crowd (No, not UPC- no worries!) Maybe there is hope for us, yet...

Nope.... didn't think you would think so.......

Blessings!!

[DAII]

Originally Posted by Sunni

Very simply...

1.I do not know why he is still listed on the General Council (BTW-there is also another member on there that I am positive does not have WPF license.) Obviously, from my previous post, I was very candid about the fact that I didn't know and was merely speculating... I don't know- and don't care enough to ask .

2. Bro. Craft is NOT licensed with the WPF.

Feel free to take it or leave it. I don't need to call him and ask- I know. I am sure he would not mind you calling him and asking him either- he would most likely prefer it than us going back and forth about it anyway on a forum. He is a great man that I respect highly- WPF or UPC or whatever....

BTW- there is a pastor in GA that fellowships with the WPF crowd (No, not UPC- no worries!) Maybe there is hope for us, yet...

Nope.... didn't think you would think so.......

Blessings!!

1. Let's establish the first fact ... YOU DON'T KNOW IF HE'S A MEMBER OF THE GENERAL COUNCIL OF THE WPF.

2. Second fact. Surely, you have confused having license as defined by the General Board WITH being issued a license, Sunni.

Personally, I dont get you "defend the Tulsa crowd" types ... in the last 3 years we've heard that there was not going to be a WPF ... then that it would not be an organization ... etc., etc.

So ... either we chalk this authoritative chatter to being ignorant of the facts or being deceptive in twisting and contorting reality.

Sunni, let's help you with this ... I WILL TRY TO BE AS CLEAR AND CONCISE AS POSSIBLE....

being issued a card ... or even having permission to let's say ... marry and perform funerals IS NOT WHAT THE GENERAL BOARD DESCRIBES IN ITS 2008 RULING AS HOLDING LICENSE/MEMBERSHIP IN ANOTHER MINISTERIAL ORGANIZATION.


According to the DKB quotes I provided the General Board in its 2008 ruling has chosen to distinguish issuing of license with holding a license/membership with another organization when he writes:

The WPF will parallel the UPCI’s efforts in such areas as Foreign Missions, Home Missions, Youth Ministry, Ladies Ministry, Education, and even Bible Quizzing. To fulfill this plan, the WPF will need to identify ministerial license in some way in order to qualify members, qualify officers, conduct votes, and enforce adherence to its Articles of Faith. However, the Manual of the UPCI states that its ministers cannot be licensed with another “organization or association” (Art. VII, Sec. 2, Par.

This was his opinion prior to the General Board meeting for its ruling in the summe.

Then in June of 2008 he CLEARLY STATES his understanding as a voting General Board member about the UPCI's definition of holding license:

The UPCI Manual says on p. 46: “No minister shall be permitted to hold license or ordination with any other religious organization or association.” The legal counsel for the UPCI wrote an opinion stating that the General Board is the proper body to determine when this provision applies, and he identified some concerns that need to be considered in this regard.

Consequently, the General Board decided that this provision applies to organizations that meet certain criteria such as requiring payment of ministerial dues, requiring subscription to Articles of Faith, and conducting operations that are parallel to the UPCI, even if an organization doesn’t use the precise language of issuing “license.”

Specifically, the General Board concluded that it is not proper for someone to be a voting, dues-paying minister of the UPCI and also a voting, dues-paying minister of the new organization called Worldwide Pentecostal Fellowship that was recently created at a conference in Tulsa, Oklahoma.

Holding such dual ministerial membership could lead to conflicts of interests, since ministers could vote on parallel offices in two different organizations, would be subject to two different Articles of Faith, would be subject to two different procedures for ministerial discipline, and so on

So, if the public record is verified that TLC is a general council member of the WPF whose bylaws clearly state that a GC council member must be a WPF member ... then he holds LICENSE/MEMBERSHIP WITH TWO ORGANIZATIONS under the criteria of the ruling set forth by the the General Board of the UPCI.

This is what the General Board describes as improper dual membership/license, not me.

[Sunni]

"Personally, I dont get you "defend the Tulsa crowd" types ..." -DA II

Once again, I will reiterate, I do not know why he's still listed in the general council. That was my defense of the 'Tulsa crowd'... that is, by the way, a sad defense, indeed.....

Furthermore, I came on a thread speculating about a UPC minister you were calling into question- so, I guess I'm a "defend the UPC crowd" type too....

Furthermore, ONCE AGAIN, Bro. Craft is NOT licensed in the WPF. No matter how many quotes you throw out, it doesn't change the fact that a simple call to him would verify my claim, and a call to the WPF would be a wonderful place to ask why he's listed when he is not under guidelines. My guess is the others asked for their names to be withdrawn, and Bro. Craft never bothered. The list will then be update with the new elections this year- LIKE I SAID, MY GUESS.

If you're going to the trouble of spending all this time looking up quotes, memorizing guidelines, checking variations in numbers of council members- wouldn't some phone calls be simpler? Then you could criticize them publicly to your heart's content- with the facts....

I came on here to simply add a fact about Rev. Craft- which was unclear due to the listing- which I have openly admitted....

I have no desire to defend the WPF to you or the UPC either.... Your disdain is well documented.....I have better things to do, but I'll always seek to clear up misinformation about any person I respect when I can. Even to someone like you who seeks to continually discredit the UPC by pointing out her flaws & discrepancies. I agree they are there, but I care more about good churches with integrity-filled pastors reaching out to their cities... and I realize that I can shout against the wind over the ineptness or politically climbing power- hungry men in any organizational structure... which I whole-heartedly agree are in the WPF, the UPC, and pretty much every set of letters we can throw out.... I guess Heaven is the only cure for organizations.

Being a part of the WPF, I am not blind- I am simply resigned to the weakness of organizations- I put my faith in God- and believe in the Men of God who are worth believing in, and that is never facilitated upon what card they carry.....

So, have at it.... Continue trying to prove how misleading or inept organizations can be- and certain men within them- but don't be surprised when we aren't 'surprised at all.' We all already knew that......Some choose not to join, some really consider them a necessary evil, some will love them blindly.. and some of us who can see the good and the bad, will love ours- in spite of......

Blessings

[DAII]

Originally Posted by Sunni

Furthermore, ONCE AGAIN, Bro. Craft is NOT licensed in the WPF. No matter how many quotes you throw out, it doesn't change the fact that a simple call to him would verify my claim, and a call to the WPF would be a wonderful place to ask why he's listed when he is not under guidelines. My guess is the others asked for their names to be withdrawn, and Bro. Craft never bothered. The list will then be update with the new elections this year- LIKE I SAID, MY GUESS.

1. Once again, I am simply stating what the UPCI's general board considers as holding dual license whether you choose to accept their criteria is another matter.

2. I will verify what has been the public record in the last two years.

3. If your guess is right that he has allowed his name to remain as part of the WPF General Council whether through negligence or apathy ... it would behoove him to take his name off because being a member of the GC would be deemed a violation of the UPCI manual by his elders and improper.

4. I think the big picture is whether ministers adhere to their denominational manuals or decisions of their superiors anymore ... or have they decided that ultimately they will decide who they will fellowship with ... while giving the proverbial "finger" at policy and protocol.

Another example of this would be the affirmation statement. Which would of course bring the question of integrity into the discussion.

Another issue of interest is whether the New GS has any teeth behind the bark.

[DAII]

Oh, this gets much, much better ...

So I just got off the phone with a man name John at the WPF office in Tulsa and he stated unequivocally that elder Craft, along with other independents, is NOT A MEMBER OF THE WPF BUT IS A MEMBER OF THE WPF's GENERAL COUNCIL.

Say again? Double take.

This despite the WPF's constitution that reads:

2. Officers of WPF shall consist of:
a.An Executive Council of six members
b.A General Council of fifty members
c.The Executive Chairman is one of the members of the Executive Council\
d. All members of both Executive and General Councils must be members of WPF and at least (30) thirty years of age, who have been faithful to the life and doctrine of Jesus Christ as expressed in Scripture and as enunciated for fellowship purposes in the Articles of Faith.

Hmmm.

So ... how does that work? John? Crawford? Nate Dubbya?

Are we parsing words or playing semantical games, here?

GAMES PEOPLE PLAY.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by DAII

Oh, this gets much, much better ...

So I just got off the phone with a man name John at the WPF office in Tulsa and he stated unequivocally that elder Craft, along with other independents, is NOT A MEMBER OF THE WPF BUT IS A MEMBER OF THE WPF's GENERAL COUNCIL.

Say again? Double take.

This despite the WPF's constitution that reads:



Hmmm.

So ... how does that work? John? Crawford? Nate Dubbya?

Are we parsing words or playing semantical games, here?

GAMES PEOPLE PLAY.

It is like a businessman, who is not an employee or shareholder the corporation, being asked to be on the Board of Directors. Very common in the business world, why should it be odd in religious orgs? Again, TLC may not be a member of the WPF, yet be on its advisory board or General Counsel??? Just my thoughts.

You sound obsessed, Daniel, why don't you give it a rest????

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by TJJJ

ORDER OF FAITH?

Goodness, that sounds Catholic!

What is next for them? Sainthood?

No, "Sainthood" is for the common man in the UPC and other related organizations.

What about the many other men who are listed as holding UPC credentials and simultaneously sit on the WPF's councils? I know two men personally who do so, though I have not spoken to either in years. One had posted (I think) on AFF or the earlier incarnations of this bulletin board.

I was told that this guy was just waiting for the DS to "come after him." Unfortunately, the DS never seemed to get around to even acknowledging the guy's dual memberships before he retired. The new DS doesn't really seem to care about the situation very much either.

I think that's one of the biggest frustrations of the WWPF - that they aren't the thorn in the side that they thought they'd be. Many of the WeDeclare.com crowd that went along with the WPF - even if just in spirit - seem to really desire to be "persecuted" and thus have their "tough stands" validated. Many of the WPF were never really known for their anti-TV stands before or their tough holiness standards. They just seemed to be courting the guys who were too "holy" to ever really fellowship with anyone.

It's just hard for me (and probably for most people) to get really concerned about guys taking a "tough stand" on chopsticks in women's hair and bifurcated jammie bottoms; so we look for another motive behind these guy's behavior, and that's when they get their own bifurcated BVDs in a bunch. They all aspire to their own class of knighthood - it validates and motivates the constant bickering over inane standards issues.

Guys like TC just never really came across like that to me before. Maybe he thinks he has to make up for "oversights" in his past? Dunno. But if he and all of the others could find an organization that allows for our own shortcomings to be justified by Someone greater than ourselves, then none of us would have to be constantly trying to be "good enough" or "holy enough."

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by crakjak

It is like a businessman, who is not an employee or shareholder the corporation, being asked to be on the Board of Directors. Very common in the business world, why should it be odd in religious orgs? Again, TLC may not be a member of the WPF, yet be on its advisory board or General Counsel??? Just my thoughts.

You sound obsessed, Daniel, why don't you give it a rest????

NO! He will NOT rest until everyone, even you Crackerjack, are as Apostolic as Daniel is.

Besides, the UPC does have that statement - "No double dipping org-wise." Do they mean what they say or not? Is this just to be another "forgotten clause" like to statements in the Manuel on Conscientious Scruples?