I understand what you are saying, and there may be an argument there. My issue is that while I recognize that what we have now is broken and is heading in a bad direction, I don't think that the answer is a nostalgic look back with rose colored glasses at days gone by. In its totality, I would personally not wish to return to life in America pre-1865. There are many Americans who feel this way for obvious and varying reasons. When I do hear of this time romanticised as a time of God-fearing Americans who lived life in the true spirit of our constitution it just doesn't jive all that well with me.
I understand and appreciate that everybody's perspective is different and that they are as diverse as our own realities. I'm just stating my general opinion. I do often see people tend to look back and over-romanticise times past when confronted by tough current situations and I just don't see that as productive.
I think our present predicament makes it obvious that there was a shortage of honorable, God-fearing people even in 1861.
Mostly what I am trying to say is that to the extent that people long to effect change to our government and society that would be pleasing to our founders, they do so under the shadow of the myth of Lincoln, and therefore are pushing for a dissonant and ultimately, unworkable, solution. I'll confess to nostalgia for the day when a man's word was his bond, and a handshake was as good as a contract.
Are you speaking of the poor, of the lower class, when you talk of people who would disagree with the notion of moving away from a command and control central government, and back to a limited republic?
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Engineering solutions for theological problems.
Despite today's rising cost of living, it remains popular.
"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried." - Sir Winston Churchill
"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter." - Sir Winston Churchill
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security." - Benjamin Franklin
I understand what you are saying, and there may be an argument there.
Yes... there absolutely is an argument here.
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Originally Posted by tstew
My issue is that while I recognize that what we have now is broken and is heading in a bad direction, I don't think that the answer is a nostalgic look back with rose colored glasses at days gone by.
What we nave now is not even democracy versus republic, What we have now is a badly broken democracy. And, yes, we are moving in a bad direction.
What I have stated is not a look back at any time past. What I stated was simply a factual statement that a republic is, by far, a more preferred form of government to a democracy.
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Originally Posted by tstew
In its totality, I would personally not wish to return to life in America pre-1865. There are many Americans who feel this way for obvious and varying reasons. When I do hear of this time romanticized as a time of God-fearing Americans who lived life in the true spirit of our constitution it just doesn't jive all that well with me.
But... again... this isn't about a time gone by. This is about the factual understanding of what a republic is versus a democracy.
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I understand and appreciate that everybody's perspective is different and that they are as diverse as our own realities. I'm just stating my general opinion. I do often see people tend to look back and over-romanticize times past when confronted by tough current situations and I just don't see that as productive.
Do you have a working understanding of what the difference is between a republic and a democracy?
What we nave now is not even democracy versus republic, What we have now is a badly broken democracy. And, yes, we are moving in a bad direction.
What I have stated is not a look back at any time past. What I stated was simply a factual statement that a republic is, by far, a more preferred form of government to a democracy.
But... again... this isn't about a time gone by. This is about the factual understanding of what a republic is versus a democracy.
Do you have a working understanding of what the difference is between a republic and a democracy?
D4T, I understand what you are trying to say. And yes, I understand that what we have is a badly broken democracy. My point is that a compelling argument can be made that what we had previously was a badly broken republic that did not operate in the spirit of its own Constitution.
My initial post was in response to a post that said that the Constitution became irrelevent only in 1865 and the prior to that there was a republic that honored the constitution and that in particular this was because they were God-fearing people. In my opinion this is over-romanticised.
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Either the United States will destroy ignorance, or ignorance will destroy the United States. – W.E.B. DuBois
D4T, I understand what you are trying to say. And yes, I understand that what we have is a badly broken democracy. My point is that a compelling argument can be made that what we had previously was a badly broken republic that did not operate in the spirit of its own Constitution.
My initial post was in response to a post that said that the Constitution became irrelevent only in 1865 and the prior to that there was a republic that honored the constitution and that in particular this was because they were God-fearing people. In my opinion this is over-romanticised.
Well I will have to agree with that.
In the area of 1865 is when we began losing our republic.
That is when our nation fought against itself to decide whether the federal government would have ruling power over the states rather than the vice-versa scenario laid out in the Constitution.
The Constitution granted certain very specific powers to the federal government and reserved ALL other powers to the states. That form of government is no longer to be found in this nation. It is gone and it was the Civil war that decided that.
Slavery had been the norm for pretty much all of the history of mankind. The late 1800's were the time when, worldwide, mankind was coming to a better way of thinking that could no more see the buying and selling of human beings as a conscionable act. Slavery was ending everywhere in the world. It was a pivotal point in the evolution of human thinking and nothing was going to stop it.
In the area of 1865 is when we began losing our republic.
That is when our nation fought against itself to decide whether the federal government would have ruling power over the states rather than the vice-versa scenario laid out in the Constitution.
The Constitution granted certain very specific powers to the federal government and reserved ALL other powers to the states. That form of government is no longer to be found in this nation. It is gone and it was the Civil war that decided that.
Slavery had been the norm for pretty much all of the history of mankind. The late 1800's were the time when, worldwide, mankind was coming to a better way of thinking that could no more see the buying and selling of human beings as a conscionable act. Slavery was ending everywhere in the world. It was a pivotal point in the evolution of human thinking and nothing was going to stop it.
I wasn't just thinking of slavery, but of women's rights along with other things. I think that a compelling argument may be made for the preference of a republic over a democracy...I just would not use that time in our nation's history as the basis of that argument or as an example of when God-fearing people operated in the spirit of the Constitution.
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There are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, Chuck Norris lives in Houston.
Either the United States will destroy ignorance, or ignorance will destroy the United States. – W.E.B. DuBois
I wasn't just thinking of slavery, but of women's rights along with other things. I think that a compelling argument may be made for the preference of a republic over a democracy...I just would not use that time in our nation's history as the basis of that argument or as an example of when God-fearing people operated in the spirit of the Constitution.
These things CAN happen in a democracy but have a better chance in a republic.
In a democracy 50.1% of the people can vote away 49.9% of the peoples rights. In a democracy it is mob rule. The majority wins.
In a republic the rule of law prevails. If 99.9% of the people want to vote away 0.1% of the peoples rights they cannot do so because the rule of law prevails.
The things you speak did not hinge on whether they were decided under a democracy or a republic. These were progressions in human thinking that, hitherto, had not been a part of the human mindset. These ways of thinking happened all over the world under republics, democracies, dictatorships etc...
The form of government under which these progressions occurred are simply coincidental.
These things CAN happen in a democracy but have a better chance in a republic.
In a democracy 50.1% of the people can vote away 49.9% of the peoples rights. In a democracy it is mob rule. The majority wins.
In a republic the rule of law prevails. If 99.9% of the people want to vote away 0.1% of the peoples rights they cannot do so because the rule of law prevails.
The things you speak did not hinge on whether they were decided under a democracy or a republic. These were progressions in human thinking that, hitherto, had not been a part of the human mindset. These ways of thinking happened all over the world under republics, democracies, dictatorships etc...
The form of government under which these progressions occurred are simply coincidental.
I understand that. I'm just saying that using that time period to illustrate the virtues of a republic can get a little tricky.
To the issue of our broken democracy, I think that a big part of our current problems is that the majority is not winning. I do not believe that our country is being governed the way 50.1% of the people believe it should be...and I believe that blind partisan politics is one of the major contributing factors.
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There are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, Chuck Norris lives in Houston.
Either the United States will destroy ignorance, or ignorance will destroy the United States. – W.E.B. DuBois
I understand that. I'm just saying that using that time period to illustrate the virtues of a republic can get a little tricky.
Yes it certainly can. And thanks for your patience with me for the time it took to convince me of what you were actually saying... The medium of forms has it's weaknesses. I try not to fall victim to them but, over time, we all do. Thanks again for your kindness during this volley of conversation.
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To the issue of our broken democracy, I think that a big part of our current problems is that the majority is not winning. I do not believe that our country is being governed the way 50.1% of the people believe it should be...and I believe that blind partisan politics is one of the major contributing factors.
Indeed...
The problem with both forms of government is that they require a thinking electorate. Otherwise we are a nation of puppets led by the nose by those who have the wherewithal to tell us what to think.
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