God, Is My Obededience Not Enough?: When HH Fails

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by ReformedDave

It all depends how 'minor' something is. If it is a standard that puts us in right standing with God then that's not a minor issue. I'm not judging you or your pastor. Just making an observation and asking a general question.

I agree, a standard that puts us in a right standing with God is not minor.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

I agree that this must be refuted by the theologians. It will be their ability to do so that will lend credence to or invalidate this doctrine.

I know PO has advocated that approach and that approach alone.

Daniel,
What other approach do you suggest?

I was in a church situation that was tough, tough, tough to want to submit to leadership. Sometimes I wished I would get a disease and just die, it was that bad! I cried and told God, "Why don't you just kill me! I'm not doing well with this!!!" He said, "You haven't acted like Miriam."

Do you get that point? Even when we don't agree we can't act like Miraim! We can't sow discord. These threads are giving off that impression. Who wants leprosy, so to speak. I'd rather trust in God.

The scripture is still speaking of authority, headship and - yes - hair. Who is prepared to think it's not important. I'm not. I can't.

Here's the dilemma however,

Most that eat this type of doctrine up ... are not concerned about the nuances and theological sticking points, Miss B. Rather the extra promises and the validation it brings in living a "sacrificial" and "separation" through this one act of obedience.

Speaking to a young lady last night ... who bought into this at around 17-18 years old ... this was what appealed to her ... she did not have the theological wherewithal to clearly understand what she was learning at conferences taught by RR in her home district in New Mexico.

She was the only one in church in her family .... she was struggling to keep the faith ... and something like this ... made her feel she walked w/ angels.

Her and FB's story tell what happens when we take a doctrine and try to sell it to those that are in a gullible state ....

Daniel,
I understand what you are trying to convey, BUT really, from my point of view - I have been there with the importance of my hair and have been proud of my long hair - God taught me on a personal level when I was alone with him.

I've posted about laying my hair on the bed and crying, "God, why won't you do something, I haven't cut my hair!!". In that moment I knew that HE ALONE was more important. It was my faith in HIM that would see me through. I still had to have an obedient spirit and I still had to humble myself.

When I was fixing my hair to attend a ladies meeting I was admiring it in the mirror knowing that the other ladies would think it looked pretty too! lol God spoke to me, "Pride goeth before destruction....."

Did we, somehow, forget that His Spirit leads us and guides us into ALL truth? Did we forget He leads us as individuals? Do you know how many ladies in my acquaintance that believe in "magic hair" - nada!

My husband has been in the UPC for 35 years and said he has never once heard of the "magic hair". We talked about this last night. I've heard and been taught that we have power with the angels because of our submission, which was associated with me not cutting my hair. I've never believed that, possibly because I wasn't raised in the UPC. Mainly, because I saw it doesn't make someone submissive. It's a matter of the heart.

Nonetheless, the scripture is dealing with hair - also.

RR in her book does promise extra protection afforded by a woman's glory... which of course ... you know ... but not many of our readers.

There is something to be said about what this teaching means in it's practical application, also. We find women who will, unfortunately, focus one area of their lives and may not realize the bigger picture of God's sovereignty, His Word and His promises.

For this reason stories like these I believe have some weight in this discussion. As corroborating evidence, so to speak of the dangers it poses to the faith community.

I don't believe your bold statement, above, one bit. I've been in churches with trouble galore, but a core membership knew where to place their trust. They knew how to get a hold of God. They knew the importance of being faithful to Him and above all - Didn't forget where He brought them from!

That is so much more important to so many of us than this hair doctrine that is being bandied around here, Daniel. We don't focus on that at our church. My goodness!! lol

What do you want us to do, Daniel? What course of action do you think is best?

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Pastor Poster

See, this is where you guys will lose valuable contributors in the fight against this doctrine.

If you continue to come against the uncut interpretation of scripture, I'm out.

We have added a disclaimer ....
The writer's views on uncut hair do not necessarily reflect the views of the contributors of the blog site or it's readers.

In the purpose of our blog we've stated that believers on both sides of the issue are speaking out against it.

Lastly, studies on the cut vs. uncut are provided to the readership

We also encourage all on both sides to contribute

Furthermore, FB's testimony should provide a wake up call ... to those who support uncut hair but are against HMH with an additional reason for being against it .... it can disillusion someone so much that they will then "totally" walk away from separation as taught by some.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Pastor Poster

Pastors are responsible for what they teach, not for individual souls.

A person's salvation is founded in proper response to the Word, leading to a right relationship with God.

No pastor will stand with you on judgement day. You will stand before God ALONE.

This is my point, as well, PP! God leads us individually!

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

This is my point, as well, PP! God leads us individually!

This is not being taught by pastors many times ... but evangelists ... which brings an entirely different discussion for another ... the role of the evangelist in the Church.

PP has also stated the "dragons" he's had to fight as a pastor w/ his own saints in bringing them to district events ... distancing his church from what is perceived as cultish ..... etc, etc.

Of course salvation is personal ...

But what role does a pastor play in the life of babes and the spiritually immature ... none?

[Ron]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Daniel,
What other approach do you suggest?

I was in a church situation that was tough, tough, tough to want to submit to leadership. Sometimes I wished I would get a disease and just die, it was that bad! I cried and told God, "Why don't you just kill me! I'm not doing well with this!!!" He said, "You haven't acted like Miriam."

Do you get that point? Even when we don't agree we can't act like Miraim! We can't sow discord. These threads are giving off that impression. Who wants leprosy, so to speak. I'd rather trust in God.

The scripture is still speaking of authority, headship and - yes - hair. Who is prepared to think it's not important. I'm not. I can't.


Daniel,
I understand what you are trying to convey, BUT really, from my point of view - I have been there with the importance of my hair and have been proud of my long hair - God taught me on a personal level when I was alone with him.

I've posted about laying my hair on the bed and crying, "God, why won't you do something, I haven't cut my hair!!". In that moment I knew that HE ALONE was more important. It was my faith in HIM that would see me through. I still had to have an obedient spirit and I still had to humble myself.

When I was fixing my hair to attend a ladies meeting I was admiring it in the mirror knowing that the other ladies would think it looked pretty too! lol God spoke to me, "Pride goeth before destruction....."

Did we, somehow, forget that His Spirit leads us and guides us into ALL truth? Did we forget He leads us as individuals? Do you know how many ladies in my acquaintance that believe in "magic hair" - nada!

My husband has been in the UPC for 35 years and said he has never once heard of the "magic hair". We talked about this last night. I've heard and been taught that we have power with the angels because of our submission, which was associated with me not cutting my hair. I've never believed that, possibly because I wasn't raised in the UPC. Mainly, because I saw it doesn't make someone submissive. It's a matter of the heart.

Nonetheless, the scripture is dealing with hair - also.




I don't believe your bold statement, above, one bit. I've been in churches with trouble galore, but a core membership knew where to place their trust. They knew how to get a hold of God. They knew the importance of being faithful to Him and above all - Didn't forget where He brought them from!

That is so much more important to so many of us than this hair doctrine that is being bandied around here, Daniel. We don't focus on that at our church. My goodness!! lol

What do you want us to do, Daniel? What course of action do you think is best?

Hmmm!
Some pertinent questions indeed.

I wonder if he feels the same about Charismatics and some of thier flaky doctrines?

I despise some of these doctrines of Charismatics, but you won't see me post threads over, and over, and over again!

Daniel, do you have a job?

I am on WCB so I have the time, nevertheless, I won't waste my time beating to death some of these issues.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Ron

Hmmm!
Some pertinent questions indeed.

I wonder if he feels the same about Charismatics and some of thier flaky doctrines?

I despise some of these doctrines of Charismatics, but you won't see me post threads over, and over, and over again!

Daniel, do you have a job?

I am on WCB so I have the time, nevertheless, I won't waste my time beating to death some of these issues.

I do ... thank God. On summer vacation ... glad you have the time to weigh in.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

This is not being taught by pastors many times ... but evangelists ... which brings an entirely different discussion for another ... the role of the evangelist in the Church.

PP has also stated the "dragons" he's had to fight as a pastor w/ his own saints in bringing them to district events ... etc, etc.

I'm sure there are many "opinions" brought over the pulpit and not just by evangelists.

Bill Cole once said, I think it was, 85% of what a man says over the pulpit is his opinion, the other 15% is God. lol I'm pretty sure I can agree with that.

I know how hard it is to stand there and hold your peace or would that be piece (lol) and stay focused. I had to learn that when working with the youth. How hard is it to do that 3 times a week, all year long? Gotta be rough! lol

[Ron]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

I do ... thank God. On summer vacation ... glad you have the time to weigh in.

Summer vacation? That is nice.
When is your upcoming wedding?

I weigh in at about 220, a little high if you ask me.

I am sorry I have not much else to add except that I don't believe it & don't agree with it, along with divine flesh.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Ron

Hmmm!
Some pertinent questions indeed.

I wonder if he feels the same about Charismatics and some of thier flaky doctrines?

I despise some of these doctrines of Charismatics, but you won't see me post threads over, and over, and over again!

Daniel, do you have a job?

I am on WCB so I have the time, nevertheless, I won't waste my time beating to death some of these issues.

Wasn't I on a Sabbatical? lol

I'm listening to Gordon Poe acting like a nut at http://www.apostoliclive.com/play.php?vid=385 and clicked over here for a minute.

Four years of habit is hard to break!