Why Couldn't Jesus Heal Everybody??

[Timmy]

If you have a "truth" given in the Bible and your "facts" disagree you have to believe the Bible.

Bingo. You have to believe the Bible. It's a command. Believe it, or suffer the consequences. How do we know this? Because it says so in the Bible! Circular reasoning doesn't seem to bother you, though.

Fact: Axes don't float, but we have evidence of it in the Bible - truth has superseded fact.

Fact: Man cannot walk on water, but we have evidence of it in the Bible - truth has superseded fact.

That's different. These are miracles that happened (so it says) a long time ago. We don't have independent verification of them, but never mind. Even if they really happened, it's not what I'm talking about. I am talking about claims of truth in the Bible that affect people today.

Promises, for example. If you do X, God will do Y. That's an example of what you'd call truth. But when people today try to apply it, it doesn't always work. When children die because their parents trusted in the Bible's "truth" and obeyed it instead of taking them to a doctor, I am outraged! When "facts" don't line up with "truth", resulting in guilt, confusion, despair, depression, and death, it makes me sick!

Do you choose to believe that "truth" over the "fact" of a dead child? Do you conclude that those parents must not have had faith?

[gloryseeker]

Originally Posted by Timmy

Circular reasoning doesn't seem to bother you, though.

Give an example and I will address it because I don't adhere to circular reasoning.

That's different. These are miracles that happened (so it says) a long time ago. We don't have independent verification of them, but never mind.

Actually it's not different. It is a manifestation of the Word. Whether you want to call it a miracle or not. On the other hand all of God's Word is a miracle in some respect.

We do have independent verification if we are Bible believers.

[quote] I am talking about claims of truth in the Bible that affect people today.

So am I

Promises, for example. If you do X, God will do Y.

This is a major error of Christians. They take one scripture and try to make a formula out of it. Like Salvation, many adhere only to Acts 2:38, but it is one scripture amongst many and they must all agree.

Many will take Malachi 3 and say, "If I bring my tithe in the windows of heaven will be open" but (I believe verse 10) is just one scripture in a whole prophet book that is really about honor.

So someone cuts a check that equals 10% of their income, say they have tithed and wonder why the windows didn't open. Tithing is a heart thing (like everything else) and not an account procedure. So did truth not work or did the person not understand truth?

The Bible is not about formulas it is about relationship, faith, and obedience.

But when people today try to apply it, it doesn't always work.

I added the bold to emphasize your error. We are told that God's people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge. We don't "try" things. You either understand how to walk in the promise or you don't.

I would never advocate that someone refuse medical care for their child. It is one thing for an adult to make a decision to stand in faith over medical then someone trying their faith on their child. This is how Christians get stuck on stupid.

When "facts" don't line up with "truth", resulting in guilt, confusion, despair, depression, and death, it makes me sick!

Again, God's Word never fails. It is an incorruptible seed. It always works when it is worked properly. God's Word will NEVER bring guilt, confusion, despair, depression, or death (John 10:10) Jesus came to bring life more abundantly...if it's not life it's not Jesus.

Again, it's our failure to understand how to work God's Word.

Also, the Word of God is not compartmentalized. You can be a giver while committing adultery. Your sin is going to keep your faithfulness from working properly.

Typically, it is areas of ones life that they are not willing to deal with that keeps them from experiencing the promises in the area they desire.

Do you choose to believe that "truth" over the "fact" of a dead child? Do you conclude that those parents must not have had faith?

I choose to believe the Word. For myself, as I have said many times, if I experience something on the kill, steal, and destroy side of the equation I don't blame it on God. Either I missed it, wavered in my faith, or was operating beyond my understanding because God's Word NEVER fails!

[Timmy]

Give an example and I will address it because I don't adhere to circular reasoning.

You believe the Bible because the Bible says you must believe the Bible.

One of the purest examples of circular reasoning I have ever seen.

This is a major error of Christians. They take one scripture and try to make a formula out of it. Like Salvation, many adhere only to Acts 2:38, but it is one scripture amongst many and they must all agree.

And when they don't all agree? Then what?

But come on. Take healing. There are many, many scriptures the promise it. There are examples of it. Clear, unambiguous instructions. If you do X, God will do Y.

It is one thing for an adult to make a decision to stand in faith over medical then someone trying their faith on their child.

They were just obeying the instructions given to them by God. Are any sick among you? Call for the elders of the church. They obeyed. The child died. Tell them to their faces that they are "stuck on stupid".

God's Word will NEVER bring guilt, confusion, despair, depression, or death

Yes, it does, and it has, many times, to countless millions of people. You can blame them, if you like. Pile on more guilt and despair. I guess they just don't get it. Can't get it! What percentage of those who try to "get it" really do? Are you among the select few that actually can move mountains with your faith? Does Jesus really do whatever you ask in His name?

You say things like "God gives His angels charge over us lest we dash our foot against a stone", but you will not accept any facts that disprove it. If you dash your foot against a stone (so to speak), how in the world does that not prove that those angels either 1) messed up or 2) don't really exist?

[Timmy]

We don't "try" things. You either understand how to walk in the promise or you don't.

Reminds me of Yoda's famous line. "No, try not. Do, or do not. There is no try."

[gloryseeker]

Originally Posted by Timmy

You believe the Bible because the Bible says you must believe the Bible.

One of the purest examples of circular reasoning I have ever seen.

That is assumption on your part. I never said I believe the Bible because I must believe the Bible. I believe the Bible because I have a relationship with my Lord and Savior and I have found that His Word is true all the time and without exception.

And when they don't all agree? Then what?

There is no "then what" the scripture does agree or else throw the whole book away. Where you find areas that you perceive as not agreeing it is you that is lacking not God.

But come on. Take healing. There are many, many scriptures the promise it. There are examples of it. Clear, unambiguous instructions. If you do X, God will do Y.

You don't understand faith because faith is not an equation. You can take all your X and Y scriptures that you say produce a formula for healing and then I will take you to James where he is not even talking about healing and show you that one that wavereth shall not receive.

Most Christians don't understand the correlation between fear and faith. If you operate in fear you will not operate in faith. Fear is the exact same thing as faith just going in the opposite direction. Therefore, if you are walking through the hills and get bit by a rattlesnake, if fear rises up in your heart you are not going to shake it off like Paul and be healed now matter how much you confess the Word...you don't have the faith for it.

Destruction comes from a lack of understanding.

They were just obeying the instructions given to them by God. Are any sick among you? Call for the elders of the church. They obeyed. The child died. Tell them to their faces that they are "stuck on stupid".

Again, lack of understanding...just complete the scriptures it doesn't say anything about bringing someone else first of all and second it says the prayer of "faith", so if the "faith" element is missing like "Lord if it be your will" don't get confused as to why you don't receive.

Yes, it does, and it has, many times, to countless millions of people. You can blame them, if you like. Pile on more guilt and despair. I guess they just don't get it. Can't get it! What percentage of those who try to "get it" really do? Are you among the select few that actually can move mountains with your faith? Does Jesus really do whatever you ask in His name?

I agree there are millions who have guilt and despair, but you assign the blame to God. It is the devil that steals, kills, and destroys.

Now, you ask what percentage. I would say very small because wide is the gate to destruction and many are they who go that way. The walk of faith if very difficult. It takes a lot of discipline and it requires one to be willing to change their life to conform to the Word. Reality, most won't do that.

You say things like "God gives His angels charge over us lest we dash our foot against a stone", but you will not accept any facts that disprove it. If you dash your foot against a stone (so to speak), how in the world does that not prove that those angels either 1) messed up or 2) don't really exist?

Because I believe God more than I believe you.

[Bro-Larry]

Originally Posted by Timmy

Am I patronizing again?

Seriously. Is there significance to how you bolded the words truth and fact? Are you saying that there are some Biblical truths that are not in line with facts? Does truth trump facts?

Or is your point that when someone doesn't receive a healing, they did not ask in faith?

I don't think "patronizing " is the right word, Timmy. Maybe you're just "pulling my leg". that's OK really.

Tim, through faith we understand that the worlds (spirit world and physical world) were framed by the word of God, so that things that are seen (physical world) were not made of things that do appear (things that you cannot see.) So the spiritual world dominates this physical world.

Therefore, the word of God which you could not see, created the physical world. Gen 1: and God said,... let light be, and light was. Seven times in Gen chp 1, God said,.... that's the truth. The word also says that by Jesus' stripes ye are healed. That's the truth. Everybody is already healed, in the spiritual world,

But if you have symptoms of sickness, in this physical world, that may be a fact, but it is not the truth. Everybody has the opportunity to take the fath that God has given every man, and use it to change the facts into the truth.

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by Bro-Larry

I don't think "patronizing " is the right word, Timmy. Maybe you're just "pulling my leg". that's OK really.

I assure you, I'm not pulling your leg. Just trying to make sense of what you're saying. I'm not succeeding.

Tim, through faith we understand that the worlds (spirit world and physical world) were framed by the word of God, so that things that are seen (physical world) were not made of things that do appear (things that you cannot see.) So the spiritual world dominates this physical world.

Therefore, the word of God which you could not see, created the physical world. Gen 1: and God said,... let light be, and light was. Seven times in Gen chp 1, God said,.... that's the truth. The word also says that by Jesus' stripes ye are healed. That's the truth. Everybody is already healed, in the spiritual world,

But if you have symptoms of sickness, in this physical world, that may be a fact, but it is not the truth. Everybody has the opportunity to take the fath that God has given every man, and use it to change the facts into the truth.

Sigh.

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by gloryseeker

That is assumption on your part. I never said I believe the Bible because I must believe the Bible. I believe the Bible because I have a relationship with my Lord and Savior and I have found that His Word is true all the time and without exception.

You said that you have to believe the Bible. Your words:

If you have a "truth" given in the Bible and your "facts" disagree you have to believe the Bible.

Why do you have to believe it? Who gave the order? And what would happen if you stopped believing the Bible?

I agree there are millions who have guilt and despair, but you assign the blame to God.

No. I do not blame God. I blame people: the ones who say God said this and that, when they have no right to say that, and I blame the ones that say we must believe those people anyway.

Do you believe everyone you hear today say "God told me to tell you...."? I hope not! Just because some people said such things thousands of years ago, and wrote it down, we have no obligation to believe it. It doesn't get any truer with aging!

Because I believe God more than I believe you.

More accurately, you believe the people who tell you the Bible is God's infallible word and you must believe it no matter what, more than you believe what really happens.

[gloryseeker]

Originally Posted by Timmy

You said that you have to believe the Bible. Your words:

Okay, you are right I said that, but take it in context. My position is that the Bible is right 100% of the time. Therefore, if one is going to believe the Bible then they must (in the manner of should) believe the Bible.

Why do you have to believe it? Who gave the order? And what would happen if you stopped believing the Bible?

Okay, again you are technically correct, but you miss the context. You are right, there are no belief police and you have the option to choice just have you have an option to choose whether there is a God or not.

You have the option to not believe the Bible, but you can choose to believe the world is flat also, but that doesn't make it flat. There is truth no matter what you choose to believe.

No. I do not blame God. I blame people: the ones who say God said this and that, when they have no right to say that, and I blame the ones that say we must believe those people anyway.

Now, I would agree that there are a lot of preachers out there regurgitating what they heard without knowing how to apply it and they have hurt a lot of people, but if you go back and read your posts you do have a problem with God not just people.

Do you believe everyone you hear today say "God told me to tell you...."? I hope not! Just because some people said such things thousands of years ago, and wrote it down, we have no obligation to believe it. It doesn't get any truer with aging!

Nope, I don't believe everyone. But the scriptures have gone through great scrutiny and being penned over thousands of years and all agree. But that is not really the kicker. The real kicker is that God has made Himself real to me. He said those who seek will find. I have found and have made the decision to believe everything He has said. Bottom line it works and I wouldn't trade it for anything in the world. If you will seek you will find also.

More accurately, you believe the people who tell you the Bible is God's infallible word and you must believe it no matter what, more than you believe what really happens.

You miss the whole point. I don't believe because someone else believes. I believe because of my relationship.

[Timmy]

Okay, you are right I said that, but take it in context. My position is that the Bible is right 100% of the time. Therefore, if one is going to believe the Bible then they must (in the manner of should) believe the Bible.

That's an even tighter circle! You have to believe the Bible because you believe it!

You have the option to not believe the Bible, but you can choose to believe the world is flat also, but that doesn't make it flat. There is truth no matter what you choose to believe.

I choose not to believe that the world is flat because it quite clear that it isn't flat. If I believed it, it wouldn't make it true. Likewise, if the Bible isn't true, your choosing to believe it wouldn't make it true.

But "choose" is an odd word to use, in terms of beliefs. I wouldn't choose to believe the earth is flat, for any reason other than considering the facts I have available and coming to that conclusion. The facts don't lead to that conclusion. Is it correct to say, then, that I choose not to believe it? Anyway, that's where I'm at with the Bible. The facts I know do not lead to a conclusion that it is true.

And I guess that's where we started. Facts vs truth. I maintain that facts are truth. If God inspired the Bible, it would line up with facts. It would actually be true, rather than be some idealized Truth that one must believe, on faith, even when facts don't agree.