Gods Sovereignty

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Newman

A loophole is where one party figures out a way to get around what both parties agreed to. That is not what we are talking about.

God is sovereign. He can show mercy to whomever He wants.

So you are talking about God showing mercy to those who have not obeyed the gospel for whatever reason? Is God a respecter of persons? I'm not sure I'm following what you are saying.

[Newman]

God is sovereign. He can show mercy to whomever he wants. Who am I do decide what God will or won't do?

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

I answered this in another thread. If you haven't spoken in tongues, you haven't received the Holy Spirit. And if you aren't indwelled with the Spirit, you are none of His.

It sounds exclusionary. I know. But I believe it is God's word. Not mine.

It's God's will for all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth and God is more than willing to give the Holy Spirit to them that ask Him.

And eventually all men will! If it is God's will it will eventually take place, one day or a thousand years. So you might as well get to studying and see if you can find out how these things could be........

Many are the thoughts and plans of man, but it is the purpose of God that will come to pass.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Newman

God is sovereign. He can show mercy to whomever he wants. Who am I do decide what God will or won't do?

God is most certainly sovereign. He is the judge of the whole earth.

I know the Bible says mercy rejoiceth over judgement but I believe the mercy of God is in this life. On judgement day we will be judged according to the things we did in the flesh. And those who have not obeyed the gospel with not be saved.

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Matt I am a fervent water & Spirit man and I do NOT believe in the light doctrine the ONLY saving message from Pentecost until now is Acts 2:38 period. I certainly am not a 'loop hole" guy but IF(that is a big IF) at the judgment God who wrote the law has mercy on some that are without the law then what could we say??? The lawgiver certainly has the right to give any exemption He would deem. Do I think He will?? I have NO scripture for it. Do I think He can???? He is God and judgment belongs to Him alone. Just a thought.

Originally Posted by Newman

Hehehe I think we just said the same thing in different words.

I guess just from my point of view, I have a problem seeing and believing that God, even though he is sovereign, will go against his written word and save someone in this dispensation in any way other than the bible pattern of Acts 2:38. I cannot leave room for an exception to be possible, or I would never again be able to say that there is only one way. I would forever have trouble beliing the Word of God, as it would no longer be "settled in heaven".

[CC1]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

I often here it said here that "God is sovereign, and can do what he wants". While I understand the premise of what is being said, I disagree with the end result of the statement.


God has set certain boundaries, even upon his own hand, that though he could, he will not go beyond. At one time God destroyed the earth with water. After the water receded, and Noah exited the ark, God set a sign of covenant in the sky, stating that he would never again destroy the earth with water. This was a boundary that God set upon himself. Though he is sovereign, we can bank on the fact that he will never again destroy the earth with water.

So why is it that we are willing to use this "sovereignty thing" so much as a "loophole" when it comes to salvation. The bible is very plain that salvation only comes through Jesus Christ. I believe, as Apostolics, that we all believe a person must be born again to be saved. I understand that we have a diversity of views as to when all this takes place. But for those of us (water-spirit folks) that believe that tongues is the initial evidence of the Holy Ghost, how can we use the "sovereign" card and say there is a possibility that someone that has not spoken in tongues can be saved? Are we so unsure of what the bible says that we are must make exceptions just in case? I cannot see any exceptions for salvation outside of water-spirit with the initial evidence of tongues within this new testament era. If I saw any "loopholes" I would be forced to change my beliefs on the new birth message.

So let me ask you water-spirit folks..... do you believe that anyone that has not spoken in tongues in this new testament era will be saved should they meet God in that state?

I am not the target audience your question is directed at but I can tell you what I think!

I believe what people mean is that God will have the right answer for the tough questions on earth that defy theology. For example the old scenarios like what if a man repents, is baptized in Jesus Name, then has a heart attack and dies while earnestly seeking the baptism of the Holy Ghost with speaking in tongues. Or similarly the man who repents, receives the Holy Ghost baptism with the evidence of speaking in tongues then dies before being able to be baptized in Jesus name in water.

Or yet again questions about mentally handicapped people's salvation, etc. Oh, and don't forget stroke victims. I know of elderly saints of God who never uttered a curse word in their life who began cursing like sailors after a stroke. Do we judge them backslid? I think most people prefer to say that a sovereign God can handle those questions!

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by CC1

I am not the target audience your question is directed at but I can tell you what I think!

I believe what people mean is that God will have the right answer for the tough questions on earth that defy theology. For example the old scenarios like what if a man repents, is baptized in Jesus Name, then has a heart attack and dies while earnestly seeking the baptism of the Holy Ghost with speaking in tongues. Or similarly the man who repents, receives the Holy Ghost baptism with the evidence of speaking in tongues then dies before being able to be baptized in Jesus name in water.

Or yet again questions about mentally handicapped people's salvation, etc. Oh, and don't forget stroke victims. I know of elderly saints of God who never uttered a curse word in their life who began cursing like sailors after a stroke. Do we judge them backslid? I think most people prefer to say that a sovereign God can handle those questions!

I just remembered this thread.

CC1, The question is not whether God is sovereign and able to judge the hard cases, but whether he will go outside of scripture to do so.

[ReformedDave]

We should rename this thread "Man's sovereignty and God just looking in".

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

I guess just from my point of view, I have a problem seeing and believing that God, even though he is sovereign, will go against his written word and save someone in this dispensation in any way other than the bible pattern of Acts 2:38. I cannot leave room for an exception to be possible, or I would never again be able to say that there is only one way. I would forever have trouble beliing the Word of God, as it would no longer be "settled in heaven".

I am in total agreement with you in completely my only statement is God is the final judge if He would choose(which I doubt seriously) to have mercy on someone who has not obeyed that is His right as the judge. Again not advocating this will happen just exercising the ole grey cells as Poiriot would say.

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by ReformedDave

We should rename this thread "Man's sovereignty and God just looking in".

Dave, I am asking an honest question here. I have read here, and on NFCF where some have stated that there is no other way but Acts 2:38 for salvation, but then they state that "God is sovereign, and will judge". I see this as a loophole just as much as the light doctrine is a loophole. Either Act 2:38 is the only response acceptable that will bring salvation, or its not.