1Corinthians: Instructions for the Church

[Amanah]

On women remaining silent:
https://youtu.be/I5kTo7CLBDk
.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by jediwill83

One thing Ive been discovering lately is the priestess model that the pagan temples used during Biblical times. In the early NT church age, these groups of believers would be*from an outside perspective* heavily outmatched by already established and entrenched pagan temples. These temples would use women to spread word of whatever goddess or god she would be promoting in a heavily evangelistic manner even down to how she wore her hair. Old pagans become new believers in Christ who now need teaching under a totally new leadership and doctrine model. They had to weed out old habits,beliefs and mindsets and they were wise in giving instruction in its application. It wasnt due to any supposed female inferiority. You think women cant band together, teach, lead and spread ideas? The church was being fought on this front by pagan religious leaders and worshippers who were products of that very effective system. It wasnt the lack of education...of course they were educated for that time. They would have had to be to transmit thoughts and ideas into spoken and written words and to also understand and to do this in probably multiple languages? *pshaw*


They werent just championing a new usurper in a new dawn of pagan patheon expansion...they had to burn down that entire model and start at the beginning of something completely different.



They were no longer slaves, temple prostitutes and or oracles but now the Bride of Christ and they would not serve the Groom as they served their former masters....lot to unlearn first.


Anways...just some thoughts about the context of the time I just wanted to share...maybe nothing.

Interesting perspective.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Judges 4:4-5
4......And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, judged Israel at that time.
5......And she dwelt under the palm tree of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in mount Ephraim: and the children of Israel came up to her for judgment.

Generally, women were not usually leaders in Israel, but in some cases, God did use them in leadership roles that required them to speak in the congregation. God would not cause women to do something that is sinful. Also, I know of several testimonies of pioneers in 20th-century Pentecostalism that women began churches in my local area for lack of men doing it.

I don’t know, but it seems that this is Old Covenant. Under the Old Covenant God ordered the sacrifice of animals. Under the new, we don’t. And we don’t say that they did it back then, so we might should encourage the same today.

In the New Covenant, Paul says it is a shame for women to speak in church. It is not permitted. He also says that the law also says so. I’m not sure where. Does anyone know? Paul says it is a commandment from the Lord. It sounds serious.

From a statistical standpoint, the word prophetess occurs only eight times in the Bible. Two of these in the New Testament. The male form (prophet) occurs more than five hundred times for what it’s worth.

The feminine word deaconess does not appear in the Bible, at least not in the KJV. (Deacon five times.)

Another thing, Deborah declares that . . .

[9] And she said, I will surely go with thee: notwithstanding the journey that thou takest shall not be for thine honour; for the LORD shall sell Sisera into the hand of a woman. And Deborah arose, and went with Barak to Kedesh.

Notice that Deborah doesn’t say that God will deliver Sisera unto her hand, no, she brings gender into the equation. She does say that the victory will not bring honor to Barak, she says that God will deliver Sisera into the hand of a WOMAN.

Is it just me? Or is there some shame implicated in this passage? Barak certainly doesn’t seem to be a valiant and courageous man if he won’t go to war unless “a woman” goes with him.

Aaaand if a woman is allowed to preach, but only if a man refuses, or is not available, wouldn’t it be proper for her to forbear preaching if a man does become available?

Just some thoughts.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Opposing viewpoints

DKB on women ministers:
https://youtu.be/BXQVZmBTyZA

.

GJ on women ministers:
https://youtu.be/TXE28e9fY8k

.

Thank you for posting opinions from both sides of the issue. It is helpful I think to hear the arguments from both sides. I like GJ better. I think of the two he is more true to scripture. It seems to me that Bernard is coming from a position of , “this is what the UPCI believes so he sets out to defend a doctrine that is weak at best.

Or as Gino would say “ he has homemade scripture “.

Homemade biscuits and gravy, homemade pie, homemade cookies . . .
All good!

Homemade scripture?
Bad!

[jediwill83]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Thank you for posting opinions from both sides of the issue. It is helpful I think to hear the arguments from both sides. I like GJ better. I think of the two he is more true to scripture. It seems to me that Bernard is coming from a position of , “this is what the UPCI believes so he sets out to defend a doctrine that is weak at best.

Or as Gino would say “ he has homemade scripture “.

Homemade biscuits and gravy, homemade pie, homemade cookies . . .
All good!

Homemade scripture?
Bad!

And dont talk to Gino about Paul when hes got yams on the plate! 😅

[Amanah]

I agree with this position:

https://www.gotquestions.org/women-in-ministry.html

Women in ministry is an issue upon which Bible-believing Christians can and do disagree. The point of separation centers on the passages of Scripture that forbid women to speak in church or "assume authority over a man" (1 Timothy 2:12; cf. 1 Corinthians 14:34). The disagreement is whether or not those passages were relevant only to the era in which they were penned. Some contend that, since there is neither “Jew nor Greek . . . male nor female . . . but you are all one in Christ” (Galatians 3:28), women are free to pursue any field of ministry open to men. Others hold that 1 Timothy 2:12 still applies today, since the basis for the command is not cultural but universal, being rooted in the order of creation (1 Timothy 2:13-14).

First Peter 5:1-4 details the qualifications for an elder. Presbuteros is the Greek word used sixty-six times in the New Testament to indicate “seasoned male overseer.” It is the masculine form of the word. The feminine form, presbutera, is never used in reference to elders or shepherds. Based on the qualifications found in 1 Timothy 3:1-7, the role of an elder is interchangeable with the bishop/pastor/overseer (Titus 1:6-9; 1 Peter 5:1-3). And since, according to 1 Timothy 2:12, a woman should not “teach or exercise authority over a man,” it seems clear that the position of elders and pastors—who must be equipped to teach, lead the congregation, and oversee their spiritual growth (1 Timothy 3:2)—should be reserved for men only.

However, elder/bishop/pastor appears to be the only office reserved for men. Women have always played a significant role in the growth of the church, even being among the few who witnessed the crucifixion of Christ when most of the disciples had run away (Matthew 27:55; John 19:25). The apostle Paul held women in high regard, and in many of his letters to the churches he greeted specific women by name (Romans 16:6, 12; Colossians 4:15; Philippians 4:2-3; Philemon 1:2). Paul addresses these women as "co-workers," and they clearly served the Lord to the benefit of the whole church (Philippians 4:3; Colossians 4:15).

Offices were created in the early church to fit the needs of the body. Although many modern churches interchange the positions of elder and deacon, they were not the same office. Deacons were appointed to serve in a physical capacity as the need arose (Acts 6:2-3). There is no clear prohibition against women serving in this way. In fact, Romans 16:1 may indicate that a woman named Phoebe was a respected deaconess in the church at Cenchrea.

There is no scriptural precedent that forbids women from also serving as worship leaders, youth ministers, or children’s directors. The only restriction is that they do not assume a role of spiritual authority over adult men. Since the concern in Scripture appears to be the issue of spiritual authority rather than function, any role that does not bestow such spiritual authority over adult men is permissible.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Monterrey

That women keeping silent would hit a wall in most churches. Kinda puts out women preaching.

Most "churches" aren't churches, so kinda doesn't matter.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

I think it would be interesting for us to compare our local services to this instruction from Paul for church meetings. Please feel free to comment and compare your local meetings (or others, camp meetings etc.) to this instruction. Any verse or subject contained herein is fine. How well do our churches comply with the “commandments of the Lord” contained in this passage?


1Cor.14

[1] Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
[2] For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
[3] But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
[4] He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
[5] I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
[6] Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
[7] And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
[8] For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
[9] So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
[10] There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.
[11] Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.
[12] Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.
[13] Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
[14] For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
[15] What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
[16] Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
[17] For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.
[18] I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
[19] Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
[20] Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.
[21] In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
[22] Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
[23] If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
[24] But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
[25] And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.
[26] How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, everyone of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
[27] If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
[28] But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
[29] Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
[30] If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
[31] For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
[32] And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
[33] For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
[34] Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
[35] And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
[36] What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
[37] If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
[38] But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
[39] Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
[40] Let all things be done decently and in order.

1. Meetings are to be "open meetings". Not one-man-does-all-the-talking meetings.

2. Prophesyings and other "words from the Lord" are to examined and judged as to validity and application, and the most obvious time for that would be in the meeting.

3. Don't speak in tongues TO THE CHURCH unless there is interpretation. Otherwise, speak to yourself and God (don't get all loud).

4. Women are not to address the congregation, in such a way as to direct the dialogue. Which leads to #5...

5. The meeting involves dialogue and discussion, question and answer, not pontificating with no examination of what is said or taught.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

I don’t know, but it seems that this is Old Covenant. Under the Old Covenant God ordered the sacrifice of animals. Under the new, we don’t. And we don’t say that they did it back then, so we might should encourage the same today.

In the New Covenant, Paul says it is a shame for women to speak in church. It is not permitted. He also says that the law also says so. I’m not sure where. Does anyone know? Paul says it is a commandment from the Lord. It sounds serious.

The new covenant fulfills old covenants but it doesn't contradict it. Paul is not saying the law forbids women from speaking, he says the law commands them to be under obedience.

“Genesis 3:16
Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.”

From a statistical standpoint, the word prophetess occurs only eight times in the Bible. Two of these in the New Testament. The male form (prophet) occurs more than five hundred times for what it’s worth.

The statistics are what causes my dilemma. The fact that there are prophetesses that God calls is what makes the stricter interpretation that you hold difficult.

The feminine word deaconess does not appear in the Bible, at least not in the KJV. (Deacon five times.)

Yet, Phebe is ascribed using the noun diakonos.

Another thing, Deborah declares that . . .

[9] And she said, I will surely go with thee: notwithstanding the journey that thou takest shall not be for thine honour; for the LORD shall sell Sisera into the hand of a woman. And Deborah arose, and went with Barak to Kedesh.

Notice that Deborah doesn’t say that God will deliver Sisera unto her hand, no, she brings gender into the equation. She does say that the victory will not bring honor to Barak, she says that God will deliver Sisera into the hand of a WOMAN.

Is it just me? Or is there some shame implicated in this passage? Barak certainly doesn’t seem to be a valiant and courageous man if he won’t go to war unless “a woman” goes with him.

It is still a shame (how I have been raised) for a woman to exemplify more courage than a man. Culturally for most, masculine has meant strong and feminine means weak. It is an insult to tell a little boy they hit or throw like a girl. Why? Because that infers that they are weak.

Aaaand if a woman is allowed to preach, but only if a man refuses, or is not available, wouldn’t it be proper for her to forbear preaching if a man does become available?

It is a shame for there to be no man who will not step up and answer the call of God. It doesn't seem ethical (IMO) for a young male saint to tell a seasoned
Saint that has been laboring in the ministry to win their soul to, “step aside you are a woman”. Women are generally the voices that are heard behind the scenes and that is because the curse given to Eve. Although, the Bible still reveals that women did in fact speak before men the Word of God.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Esaias

1. Meetings are to be "open meetings". Not one-man-does-all-the-talking meetings.

2. Prophesyings and other "words from the Lord" are to examined and judged as to validity and application, and the most obvious time for that would be in the meeting.

3. Don't speak in tongues TO THE CHURCH unless there is interpretation. Otherwise, speak to yourself and God (don't get all loud).

4. Women are not to address the congregation, in such a way as to direct the dialogue. Which leads to #5...

5. The meeting involves dialogue and discussion, question and answer, not pontificating with no examination of what is said or taught.