Scripture interpretation

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Bro TM please explain how the definition of the two covenants may be in error.

Yes ma’am. I will try. But I worry that it will torpedo your thread and I’m not sure how much time I can devote for defending my position. Please be patient.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Yes ma’am. I will try. But I worry that it will torpedo your thread and I’m not sure how much time I can devote for defending my position. Please be patient.

Okay. We can address it in a separate thread.

[Amanah]

Jeremiah said the New Covenant would be with the house of Israel, and the house of Judah:

Jeremiah 31:31-34 KJV
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Hebrews also says the the new covenant is with the house of Israel and the house of Judah.

Hebrews 8:8-11 KJV
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.


The Old Covenant was the law written on tablets of stone, the 10 commandments:

Exodus 34:27-28 KJV
27 And the Lord said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.
28 And he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

The New Covenant is the law written on fleshly tablets of the heart. Hebrews 8:8-11

The Old Covenant had animal sacrifices.

The New Covenant has the blood of Messiah for remission of sins. The church is grafted in and is the Israel of God.

Both covenants contain the law of commandments.

[Amanah]

The New Covenant, established through Jesus Christ, is a fulfillment of the Old Covenant. The core elements remain the same, but the medium and sacrifice change.

In the Old Covenant, the blood of bulls and goats was used to atone for sins (Hebrews 9:12-14, Leviticus 17:11). However, this was only a temporary and imperfect solution, as it did not completely remove sin (Hebrews 10:1-4).

In the New Covenant, the blood of Messiah (Jesus Christ) replaces the blood of animals. Jesus' sacrifice is the perfect and eternal atonement for sins, accomplishing what the Old Covenant could not (Hebrews 9:23-28, Hebrews 10:12-14).

The New Covenant is built on the same promises and commandments as the Old Covenant but is now ratified through Jesus' blood, making it a better covenant (Hebrews 7:22, Hebrews 8:6-13). The old is fulfilled in the new, and the shadows give way to the reality of Christ's sacrifice.

Key points:

- Same covenant, different sacrifice
- Blood of Messiah replaces blood of animals
- Fulfillment of Old Covenant promises
- Transformation from temporary to eternal atonement
- Better covenant established through Jesus Christ

This understanding is central to Hebrews 8-10, where the author explores the relationship between the Old and New Covenants, highlighting the superiority of Jesus' sacrifice and the New Covenant it establishes.

[Amanah]

Here are some New Testament scriptures that affirm the importance of keeping God's commandments as a demonstration of loving Him:

1. John 14:15 - "If you love me, you will keep my commandments."
2. John 14:21 - "Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me."
3. John 15:10 - "If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love."
4. 1 John 2:3-6 - "And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments... Whoever says 'I know him' but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him."
5. 1 John 5:2-3 - "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments."
6. Revelation 12:17 - "And the dragon was angry with the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus."
7. Revelation 14:12 - "Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus."

These scriptures emphasize that loving God is not just a feeling or intellectual assent but is demonstrated through obedience to His commandments. The new covenant is the law/commandments written on the heart

[diakonos]

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

If I believe that the putting away of the Old Testament, to be replaced with the New Testament, makes someone a dispensationalist, then I'm a dispensationalist.

What does that even mean?

[diakonos]

Originally Posted by Amanah

The old covenant has not been done away with.

The Old testament/covenant is with the house of Israel and Judah. It's the 10 commandments

The New testament/covenant is also with the house of Israel and Judah. It's the 10 commandments.

The old covenant is the ten commandments:

Deuteronomy 4:13 KJV
13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

The new covenant is also the ten commandments:

Hebrews 8:10 KJV
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Whaaat?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Amanah

In Romans 11:16-24, Paul uses the metaphor of an olive tree to describe God's relationship with Israel and the inclusion of Gentiles in God's plan. Here's a breakdown:

- The olive tree represents Israel, the people of God (v. 16).
- The natural branches represent the Jewish people, who were broken off due to unbelief (v. 17-20).
- The wild olive shoots represent the Gentiles, who were grafted into the tree through faith in Jesus Christ (v. 17, 23-24).
- The root of the olive tree represents the promises and heritage of Israel, which the Gentiles are now part of (v. 17-18).

By being grafted into the olive tree, Gentiles are joined to the people of God, becoming part of the Israel of God (Galatians 6:16). This doesn't replace Israel but expands it to include those who believe in Jesus, the Messiah.

Paul emphasizes that the Gentiles are not a new or separate tree but are grafted into the existing tree, connecting them to the rich heritage and promises of Israel. This metaphor shows that the Church is not a new entity but an extension of God's original plan, with Jesus as the connection point.

In Romans 9:24-26, Paul also writes about the inclusion of Gentiles in God's plan, quoting Hosea 2:23 and 1:10, saying, "They will be called 'my people' who were not my people, and she who was not beloved will be called 'beloved'." This echoes the idea that Gentiles are now part of the people of God, the Israel of God.

There are TWO Olive Trees - one, domesticated, and one that is wild. BOTH are Israelite -

Jeremiah 11:16-17 KJV
The LORD called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken. [17] For the LORD of hosts, that planted thee, hath pronounced evil against thee, for the evil of the house of Israel and of the house of Judah, which they have done against themselves to provoke me to anger in offering incense unto Baal.

The House of Israel was divorced by God and deported from their land, and declared to be heathens, "Not-My-People" (Hosea 1). The House of Judah was not so fully cut off from God:

Hosea 4:15 KJV
Though thou, Israel, play the harlot, yet let not Judah offend; and come not ye unto Gilgal, neither go ye up to Beth–aven, nor swear, The LORD liveth.

Because Judah was not declared to be "Not-My-People", they still retained title to the designation "Israel", whereas the House of Israel lost it and became heathens ("gentiles").

But, the two Houses would be re-joined together under Christ:

Hosea 1:8-11 KJV
Now when she had weaned Lo–ruhamah, she conceived, and bare a son. [9] Then said God, Call his name Lo–ammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God. [10] Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. [11] Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.

So the domesticated olive tree is the House of Judah, and the wild olive tree is the House of Israel (otherwise known as "gentiles" and "Greeks" in the NT), who were being joined together in one body under Messiah:

Romans 9:22-26 KJV
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: [23] And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, [24] Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? [25] As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. [26] And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

Paul even references the specific prophecy in Hosea, to show that Judeans and Gentiles being united as one body in Christ is the fulfillment of the prophecy concerning the House of Judah and the divorced House of Israel being reunited under one Head.

The wild, heathenized, scattered, dispersed, "gentilized" House of Israel was being grafted back into the legal Israel of God (God's Covenanted nation) via Christ and the new covenant, which as we have seen already was made with the House of Israel and the House of Judah. And this brings us to a correct understanding and identification of the Apocalyptic Two Witnesses:

Revelation 11:3-4 KJV
And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. [4] These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

The candlestick was already interpreted in Revelation chapters 1 and 2 by Christ Himself as representing the Church, ie the new covenant people of God. The olive trees are identified in Scripture as representing "Jew and Gentile" being united as one in Christ, which as we saw in Paul's reference to Hosea is the House of Judah and the House of Israel entering the new covenant. So the Two Witnesses are therefore the two-fold people of God (House of Israel, and House of Judah) in new covenant relationship with Christ.

Isaiah 43:1-12 KJV
But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine. [2] When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee. [3] For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee. [4] Since thou wast precious in my sight, thou hast been honourable, and I have loved thee: therefore will I give men for thee, and people for thy life. [5] Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west; [6] I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth; [7] Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him. [8] Bring forth the blind people that have eyes, and the deaf that have ears. [9] Let all the nations be gathered together, and let the people be assembled: who among them can declare this, and shew us former things? let them bring forth their witnesses, that they may be justified: or let them hear, and say, It is truth. [10] Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. [11] I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. [12] I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.

[Amanah]

Awesome Elder Esaias! Thank you!

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Amanah

I invite the Elders to please comment on or correct the following

One problem with Scripture interpretation is the framework through which you view the relationship between God and mankind.

Covenant Approach:
(Biblical approach)

- Focuses on specific covenants that God established with mankind, such as:
- Adamic (creation)
- Noahic (after the flood)
- Abrahamic (with Abraham and his descendants)
- Mosaic (the Law given at Sinai)
- Davidic (God's promise to David)
- New Covenant (established through Jesus Christ)
- Emphasizes the progressive revelation of God's redemptive plan through these covenants.
- Sees God's dealings with mankind as both conditional and unconditional, with an emphasis on His sovereign grace and faithfulness.
- Highlights the unity and continuity of God's plan across different covenants.

If we trace the various covenants God makes in Scripture, we see that they are essentially made with one family line, from Adam to Noah to Abraham to Jacob. This is a point that it seems many modern Christian theologies seem to overlook or fail to mention. As if God makes these random Covenants with random people at random times, without really showing the continuity between each successive covenant.

The first mention of "covenant" is the covenant made with Noah.
The next mention of "covenant" is the covenant with Abraham.
It is passed to Isaac, and then to Jacob.
From there it is made with the descendants of Jacob during the Exodus.
Several other covenants are mentioned as being parts of the covenant with Israel (such as the covenant with Aaron for the priesthood, keeping the sabbath as a covenant, etc).
Joshua then makes a covenant with the people to keep the covenant of the LORD (so this is technically a renewing of the covenant, not so much a new or replacement covenant).
David declares the promises God made to him concerning his dynasty to be a covenant.
High priest Jehoiada makes a covenant between him, the people, the king, and the LORD, that they should be the Lord's people. Obviously this is a renewing of the covenant like in Joshua's day, not a replacement or new covenant being made.
King Josiah does similarly.
The Jews under Nehemiah make a covenant (once again, a renewal of the covenant, essentially).
Then of course, there is the promised "new covenant" that would be made with Israel and Judah, which according to the Gospels was established by Jesus.

So, it appears to me that according to the Bible, there is the Covenant with Noah, the Covenant with Abraham/Isaac/Jacob, the Covenant with Israel, and the New Covenant (also with Israel). The "Davidic Covenant" is like the Aaronic covenant of the priesthood, that is, it is a part of the Covenant made with Israel (think of it as an addendum, or a subpart). The Covenant with Israel (aka the "Mosaic Covenant" or the "Sinaitic Covenant") is basically the expansion of the Abrahamic Covenant to the entire nation (the national "phase" of the Abrahamic Covenant as it were). Although, we should keep in mind that the Abrahamic Covenant and the Sinaitic Covenant had significant differences, and thus should be considered as inter-related and intertwined but still distinct entities.

Christ came to establish the New Covenant, yet of Him it is said:

Luke 1:67-73 KJV
And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying, [68] Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, [69] And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; [70] As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: [71] That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; [72] To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant; [73] The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

So the new covenant is instituted in order to fulfill the Abrahamic covenant. It is not so much an entirely different covenant, but it is the completion or fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant. Much like the Sinaitic covenant was the national scope of the Abrahamic covenant, so too was the New covenant (especially at it is the replacement for the Sinaitic covenant).