John3 and Romans2: Part2

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

This is a reply to Esaias, from Part1. Quote from Esaias, "I think you have misinterpreted (or misapplied) this passage in Romans to unregenerate persons." THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I MEANT AND IS WHAT PAUL SAYS. Thank You. Paul speaks of those who do not know the law. They have to be unregenerate Gentiles BECAUSE they've never heard the Word. Therefore if applied to the unregenerate, if anyone does it is Paul. How can anyone think otherwise?

Paul contrasts 2 peoples in Ro2, Jews and Gentiles. The basic difference between them is one group has the Word of God, the other not. Paul attempts to show the Ro that the difference between these two people should be that the Word of God results in godly changes. v10,11 "but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God." God will treat Jew and Gentile alike by their actions not by their knowledge of the Word, because he does it without partiality by actions.

v12 "For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law" If a person knows the Word they perish for sin. If a person doesn't know the Word they perish for sin. The important part isn't whether they had heard the Word or not but how they lived, as v13 says , it's not the hearers but doers who are justified. v14 talks about doing by nature. How do you understand doing by nature? Reasoning tells it has something to do with the conscience because it is later mentioned. A person's conscience can tell them to stay away from sin. In this case it is a Gentile, who hasn't ever heard the Word. Even though they've never heard the Word/Gospel, they live free from sin by listening to their conscience, because v14 "although not having the law, are a law to themselves". Though they don't have the Word their conscience has told them to live righteous (as if they had had the Word). Paul says in v15,16 that their conscience will bear witness on the day God judges by Jesus Christ. What will their conscience witness to, when they've listened to it to stay away from sin? (He writes all these words to Ro Christians and seems to include all NT people because he mentions the gospel) This tells me that there are some people in the times of the NT who haven't been given the chance to enter into Covenant by the New Birth because they haven't ever heard the Word which would given them the faith to obey the New Birth to enter the Covenant of Blood and Spirit. Will these people who obey their conscience be considered righteous? Paul seems to imply that they will be thought righteous because their conscience doesn't condemn them. Though they may be righteous they aren't born again because they've never had the chance to hear the Gospel. They are without either covenant or law and righteous.

Therefore, there will be some from NT times who are righteous, unbaptized and going to heaven.

Paul never says these are unregenerate people. You are reading that into the text. The discussion is about people who have the law (Jew) and people who do not have the law (Gentile). Members of both groups shall perish if they are sinners, regardless of whether they have the law or not (regardless of whether they are circumcised or not, regardless of whether they are members of the Sinaitic Covenant or not).

But the righteous are those who will not perish, again regardless of whether they are circumcised or not. The circumcised "covenanted" Jew who sins shall be put to shame by the uncircumcised "uncovenanted" Gentile who does righteousness. Therefore one's status UNDER THE OLD COVENANT IS IRRELEVANT, one's circumcision status doesn't matter.

The righteous Gentile is described by Paul as one who has the law of God written in the heart. He says that specifically. The Bible applies the writing of the law of God upon the heart as an effect of the New Covenant. Therefore these righteous but uncircumcised Gentiles Paul speaks of MUST OF NECESSITY be in the New Covenant, which in turn means they MUST OF NECESSITY be regenerated Christians.

You would have to show how and where the Bible describes unregenerated Gentiles who know not God but who nevertheless have "God's law written in the heart". And no, you cannot just point back to Romans 2 as your proof text because that is the text in question and you need to find SUPPORTING EVIDENCE of your interpretation.

Again, Paul doesn't call these Gentiles "unregenerate" nor does he say they do not know God. He says they are uncircumcised but have the law of God written in their heart, and therefore are counted by God as though they were circumcised, whereas the actually circumcised Jew who does not have God's law written in the heart and who therefore does evil shall be counted as if they were uncircumcised.

If someone has the law of God written in their heart, and if the writing of the law of God in the heart is the key element of the New Covenant when contrasted with the Old, then those who have the law of God written in their heart are members of the New Covenant. And therefore these Gentiles in romans 2 are not unregenerate heathens who do not know God, but are regenerate Christian Gentiles.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by coksiw

Genesis 6:3 (NKJV) And the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he [is] indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.”


From that verse, I can see that God strives with men, and with each person. For what? To turn them to not do evil, and presumably, to turn to Him.
As result, I believe every one has in their life time, a direct calling from the Spirit to seek God at some point. If that person responds, God then reveals Himself in one way or another.

I sought God on my own, and he revealed Himself to me on his own as the God of the Bible. No preacher involved until I joined a Pentecostal church later after I read the Bible and experienced the presence of God at home during a repentance prayer.

Perhaps. But it cannot be denied that the offer of pardon is not something OWED, it is a matter of GRACE and not JUSTICE (that is, LAW). If God decided NOT to offer pardon to sinners He would still be completely just, and nobody could have any rational complaint against Him. Just as a governor or king who failed to pardon a convicted criminal has committed no injustice whatsoever. And to suggest that the governor or king has some kind of moral obligation to offer pardons is to confound mercy and justice and gets the two mixed up. Unfortunately, most professing Christians have done exactly that, confused mercy and grace with justice and law. They feel God somehow OWES salvation, or at least the "opportunity to be saved", to sinners. But this is because they view sin more as an unfortunate handicap caused by some disease rather than viewing sin as crime. They see sinners as unfortunate victims of circumstances rather than as willful criminals and rebels. And thus their perception of grace is clouded and they impose demands on God's mercy that have no place coming from convicted criminals and anarchists.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

Because a blade of grass exists it does so by the will of God. The tree which became the Cross also existed by the will of God. No one would argue that one has much greater relevance than the other but the same will of God brings both equally. For God to foreknow the existence of any individual isn't any harder for him to do than to foreknow the existence of Israel. His omniscience makes each of equal effort. In the same way that the foreknowledge of God pre-determines the destiny of Israel it also pre-determines the individual. God's infinite resources show one as equally achievable as the other. Easy-peasy. I see no reason to discriminate between the lesser and the greater when it comes to the foreknowledge/pre-determinization. I'd be interested to hear any thoughts why this should be thought necessary, but perhaps on another thread?

The Bible defines its own terms, in this case foreknowledge and predestination. I have no idea what blades of grass and what-ifs based on God's omnipotence have to do with the discussion. God's foreknowledge does not determine the individual salvation status of each individual person. Why? First of all because THE BIBLE DOESN'T SAY THAT, second because the Bible specifically explains foreknowledge as having to do with Israel's corporate status with God in contrast with the heathen, and third because if your view is correct there is no free will and Calvinism is the logical result.

Are you a Calvinist?

Edit: If the foreknowledge of God predetermines the destiny of each individual (as you have stated) then a person who repents but dies in an unbaptised state has been predestinated by God to die in an unbaptised state, Furthermore, the heathens in the Amazon or Sentinel Island who never hear about Jesus have been predestined by God to never hear about Jesus. To suggest these various groups of people die lost and bound for hell just means they were predestined by God to do so, so why all the fuss?

If anybody gets saved it is because God predestined them to be saved, and if anybody winds up lost it is because God predestined them to be lost, if what you are saying is correct. This doesn't need another thread, because it bears directly on this thread's topic.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

Therefore, there will be some from NT times who are righteous, unbaptized and going to heaven.

Unbelievers who never even heard about Jesus but are righteous and going to heaven? Because they "listened to their conscience to stay away from sin"?

This is nothing else than heathens being saved by works.

Yet according to Paul:
Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.

And again:

Titus 3:5-7 KJV
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; [6] Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; [7] That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.


How does a heathen who has never even heard about the God of Abraham "obey their conscience" and "avoid sin", when the first and greatest commandment is to "love God with all your heart, mind, and strength"? Can you love God supremely when you do not even know who He is or even that He exists?

How does such a person gain heaven when "without faith it is impossible to please God"? When we know that "faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God"?

Is there an example in Scripture of any heathens who did not know God at all who were granted eternal life by virtue of their good works and righteous deeds, apart from faith in Christ? Can some men come to the Father by some way other than Jesus Christ, when He said "NO man comes to the Father but by Me"? When there is no other name given among men whereby we must be saved?

Have you thought this idea of yours through?

Again, Romans 2 is about regenerate christian gentiles who have the law of God written in their heart, which as has been proven already is a core element of the new covenant. Therefore people who have the law of God written in their heart must necessarily be members of the new covenant, which means they must necessarily be Christians.

[donfriesen1]

[QUOTE=Amanah;1615258]Are you teaching that some can be saved by works without faith?

You make a good observation which hadn't come to my mind. To give a concise answer and not avoid the question: the answer may be yes. But with explanation.

The hypothetical Gentile is without the Word of God. NT salvation is by faith in what the Lord has done for us on the Cross. Most receive this faith by hearing the good news. The hypothetical Gentile Paul refers to is without faith in the Word for NT salvation but responds to what happens within themselves. Their conscience and intellect tell them that some things are wrong and not to do them. This consciousness of sin is what I see Paul referring to as by nature, v14. Is this also how you understand this phrase? While this Gentile is without faith in the Word for NT salvation because they haven't heard, most people have a spark of faith telling them that there is a God. Giving the Gentile some latitude because of what is within most Men, they may not be completely without faith.

Paul says their conscience is clear, reading between the lines for the essence of what Paul is speaking of. It is conceivable that even today their are some who have never heard the Gospel. Also conceivable is the possibility that some by consience try to life a right(eous) life. How will God judge these on the last day? Paul implies that they will go to Heaven, even though they have lived in the NT times, yet aren't born again.

[Amanah]

The problem with the thought that the unregenerate person can be spared is that only those with the Holy Spirit will be resurrected to immortality


According to the apostle Paul in the Bible, the Holy Spirit is the "earnest of our inheritance" as described in Ephesians 1:14. The term "earnest" is used to describe the Holy Spirit as a pledge or guarantee of a believer's future inheritance in Christ. This inheritance is the believer's future bodily redemption from sin and eternity with the Lord. The Holy Spirit acts as a down payment or deposit that guarantees God will fulfill his promises to the believer, and that everything inside them is impeccable. The Holy Spirit also assures believers that they will be given what God has stored up for his people, which will result in the honor of God's glory.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

You make a good observation which hadn't come to my mind. To give a concise answer and not avoid the question: the answer may be yes. But with explanation.

The hypothetical Gentile is without the Word of God. NT salvation is by faith in what the Lord has done for us on the Cross. Most receive this faith by hearing the good news. The hypothetical Gentile Paul refers to is without faith in the Word for NT salvation but responds to what happens within themselves. Their conscience and intellect tell them that some things are wrong and not to do them. This consciousness of sin is what I see Paul referring to as by nature, v14. Is this also how you understand this phrase? While this Gentile is without faith in the Word for NT salvation because they haven't heard, most people have a spark of faith telling them that there is a God. Giving the Gentile some latitude because of what is within most Men, they may not be completely without faith.

Paul says their conscience is clear, reading between the lines for the essence of what Paul is speaking of. It is conceivable that even today their are some who have never heard the Gospel. Also conceivable is the possibility that some by consience try to life a right(eous) life. How will God judge these on the last day? Paul implies that they will go to Heaven, even though they have lived in the NT times, yet aren't born again.

Most people have a spark of faith telling them there is a God? "The demons also believe, and tremble." What about them?

MOST get faith by hearing the Word? Not all? Some get faith apart from hearing? Paul said faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. Not most, some, a portion, etc.

Their conscience is clear? He states "their thoughts the meanwhile accusing or else excusing one another". Accusation? As in, they know they did wrong? Which means they sinned? Which means they stand in need of atonement? Remission of sin? But they don't have to have any of that because they just "can tell" when they do right and when they do wrong?

I honestly cannot see how you cannot see how contradictory your statements and conclusions are here.

Once again, these Gentiles in Romans 2 show the work of the "law written in the heart", and the law being written in the heart is an effect of the new covenant. Which means they must necessarily be Christians, not heathens. Even IF they were heathens, and Paul is simply saying they know right from wrong, that still doesn't solve the problem of them sinning, for ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Therefore ALL need the Saviour, and NOBODY is getting eternal life apart from faith in Christ.

[Amanah]

“The natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned” is a quote from the Bible, 1 Corinthians 2:14. In this verse, Paul compares the natural man to the spiritual man and the carnal man. The natural man is described as having a hard, unregenerated heart that is not receptive to God or things of God. He is an unredeemed being who lives without God and godliness in the world.

[donfriesen1]

[QUOTE=Esaias;1615261]Paul never says these are unregenerate people. You are reading that into the text... Yes it is true that I read between the lines. We all do and should if not.

The righteous Gentile is described by Paul as one who has the law of God written in the heart....

You would have to show how and where the Bible describes unregenerated Gentiles who know not God but who nevertheless have "God's law written in the heart". And no, you cannot just point back to Romans 2 as your proof text because that is the text in question and you need to find SUPPORTING EVIDENCE of your interpretation.The evidence is in the Biblical text itself. Read on.

"Again, Paul doesn't call these Gentiles "unregenerate..." Regenerate may require a definition to make sure we are on the same wavelength about it. In Adam all die because of sin. Man must be born again to regenerate that which had died in sin. Only after Acts2 is there a possibility that any could be born again, to be regenerate. The hearing of the Gospel produces the faith necessary to receive the ability to be born again to have the Word written on the heart by the Spirit. Paul says in v14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, Paul says twice they have not the Word (Gospel) to produce the faith necessary to receive the new birth. How could they be born again without the faith produced by the Word or the Gospel? Did they get wet? Did they speak in tongues? Therefore this Gentile is unregenerate. Paul also says v15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts By saying show we must understand Paul to mean that the effect of responding to their conscience (for 2500 years after the Garden Man lived without the Word by the conscience and intellect) is the same as those who have the Word, though they don't have the Word. They have a heart that wants to live right. You've said that The righteous Gentile is described by Paul as one who has the law of God written in the heart and say it must be because of the Word. But Paul twice says this Gentile doesn't have the Word and in v14 says are a law to themselves,. The law they have to themselves is not the Word. This Gentile I contend is unregenerate, not born again, and Paul implies that the Judgment shows this Gentile from the NT time with a conscience which is clearing him a passage into Heaven, unbaptized and without the Holy Ghost. God is just and doesn't condemn to hell those who want to live right, even if it is only by conscience and intellect, never having had the chance to hear the Gospel. (Plz don't bother trying to tell me that almost everyone has had the chance to hear the Gospel. That is not part of this discussion.) John3.5/Ac2.38 does not nullify Ro2.12-16. Spread the word. Its good news.

[Amanah]

They don't have the Mosaic law of the old covenant, written in stone.

Romans 2:14-15
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

Instead they have the law of the new covenant written on their hearts by the Holy Ghost.

Hebrews 8:8-10
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: