Light doctrine

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Well, we're supposed to be teaching the nations NOW. Judging (exercising actual control) seems to be a feature of the millennium.



The nations? It would be all the dead, whoever they were.



"Equal status"? There has always been and always will be hierarchy in the Creation. But yes, anyone past Rev 20 must of necessity be immortal.

So continuing into Rev 21-22, you still have two groups, the Church and the Nations. Both immortal.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

The most obvious (to me) is "How can a mass of people be deceived into warring against a returned Christ and an immortal resurrected Church?"

But then I visit social media or read a news headline...

I also remember the Golden Calf incident played out within about a month of God making an historically unique and quite blatant appearance, and presumably occurred under the shadow of the Fiery, Cloudy Pillar!

Other than that, I wonder about whether OT saints are included in the first resurrection/"dead in Christ" or if they would belong to the second general resurrection.

A big problem is most premillennialists have futurist and dispensationalist gar- er, baggage, that makes it near impossible for me to read their ideas seriously.

I also question how the obvious dominion mandate of the church fits in with premil eschatology. We aren't supposed to wait for the end to begin converting the nations, after all.

Agreed, the whole future physical millennial views, make the dominion mandate futile. Most times causes premillennialism adherents to scoff at the idea of dominion. To claim dominion heresy. But the Eastern and Western Roman churches main focus was to conquer for Christ. While they did it with pike and sword. Most stories were conversions through the Gospel. I believe that God is able to bring forth conversions if we have the faith to see the job through.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Well, we're supposed to be teaching the nations NOW. Judging (exercising actual control) seems to be a feature of the millennium.



The nations? It would be all the dead, whoever they were.



"Equal status"? There has always been and always will be hierarchy in the Creation. But yes, anyone past Rev 20 must of necessity be immortal.

So the Nations are immortal? Do they understand where their immortality comes from? Can they physically go visit Jesus in the New Jerusalem?

[Amanah]

To Summarize:

Revelation 20:4-8 describes the first resurrection, including overcoming saints (the elect, the church) who reign with Christ for a thousand years. The first resurrection is a physical vs spiritual resurrection.

Two contemporaneous groups exist during the millennium: the resurrected saints and non-resurrected nations.

The non-resurrected nations are not enemies of God, (they were destroyed before the millennium) but are instead objects of God's Plan. The Plan involves Israel being redeemed, then witnessing to other nations.

During the millennium, the resurrected church reigns, and nations walk in God's Light. Zechariah 14:16-19 and Isaiah prophecies support unregenerate nations learning God's ways during this period.

After the thousand years, Satan deceives nations (Gog and Magog) to battle against God's saints. A final rebellion occurs, involving unregenerate people deceived by Satan.

Revelation 20:7-15 describes the final rebellion, judgment, and resurrection of the dead. The 2nd resurrection is rest of the dead who live again at the end of the thousand years.

Continuing into Rev 21-22, you have two groups, the Church and the Nations. Both immortal. (See Comments)

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Esaias comment from post #27
About that last sentence, the way I read my Bible the "church" is simply the nation(s) of Israel, particularly under the new covenant, along with whatever "proselytes" join with them. Since eventually all nations would be part of the new covenant (the everlasting covenant), either they would technically be "congregations" (churches), OR there would cease to be any distinction between "church" and "not church", other than the individual national differences between each nation or nation-group.

note: by "churches" I mean the same way there is currently "one church" yet at the same time it exists in many different "churches", with "church" meaning "congregation" or "assembly".

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Agreed, the whole future physical millennial views, make the dominion mandate futile. Most times causes premillennialism adherents to scoff at the idea of dominion. To claim dominion heresy. But the Eastern and Western Roman churches main focus was to conquer for Christ. While they did it with pike and sword. Most stories were conversions through the Gospel. I believe that God is able to bring forth conversions if we have the faith to see the job through.

Amen! The problem has been when people believe "it's just going to get worse and worse and then the end shall come" they might be busy getting people to join their church but they aren't making much of an impact on the surrounding society.

Having said that, I do not think the premil perspective necessarily obviates the dominion mandate, as if premil automatically requires no dominion mandate. But then again I rarely think inside the boxes "they" have made for us.

I know Gill was not only a premillennialist, but also maintained some kind of postmillennial-like "Spiritual Reign" prior to the beginning of the Millennium. Basically a postmil millennium before the start of the premil millennium. I haven't figured out how he worked that out, his commentary doesn't actually address the mechanics enough to determine what exactly he was getting at. But I do think it indicates at least one premil interpreter recognised something like the dominion mandate being valid.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

So the Nations are immortal? Do they understand where their immortality comes from? Can they physically go visit Jesus in the New Jerusalem?

They would be immortal because their names were found in the Book of Life at the Great White Throne Judgment. That is, they were regenerated prior to the Judgment Day and did not fall away.

As for "physically going to visit Jesus in the New Jerusalem", I believe the New Jerusalem depicted in Revelation is a symbol of the church, not a mother ship that lands on the planet from beyond the solar system. However, since I do believe in a "physical resurrection" then it would make sense that Jesus was "physically" somewhere on earth, and so the resurrected and glorified saints (of all nations) could "physically go see Him", but I imagine the waiting list might be long. So thankfully we have the Holy Ghost and can go to Jesus anytime.

Which by the way brings up an interesting question or series of questions regarding the logistics of eternity. What exactly are we going to be doing? And how? I have many questions I'd like to ask Jesus directly and face to face, and I would probably hold up the line for about a couple thousand years. That's not including the questions I'd like to ask Moses, Paul, Elijah, Noah, Abraham, etc.

And, I wonder why the Bible never addresses the concept of the people who happen to be alive at "the end", except for the church? Is everybody else just dead? So nobody passes to the Judgment Seat without first dying? Except the church ("we who are alive and remain" etc etc)?

I always get bogged down in the logistics of anything I am looking at.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Amanah

To Summarize:

Revelation 20:4-8 describes the first resurrection, including overcoming saints (the elect, the church) who reign with Christ for a thousand years. The first resurrection is a physical vs spiritual resurrection.

Two contemporaneous groups exist during the millennium: the resurrected saints and non-resurrected nations.

The non-resurrected nations are not enemies of God, (they were destroyed before the millennium) but are instead objects of God's Plan. The Plan involves Israel being redeemed, then witnessing to other nations.

During the millennium, the resurrected church reigns, and nations walk in God's Light. Zechariah 14:16-19 and Isaiah prophecies support unregenerate nations learning God's ways during this period.

After the thousand years, Satan deceives nations (Gog and Magog) to battle against God's saints. A final rebellion occurs, involving unregenerate people deceived by Satan.

Revelation 20:7-15 describes the final rebellion, judgment, and resurrection of the dead. The 2nd resurrection is rest of the dead who live again at the end of the thousand years.

Continuing into Rev 21-22, you have two groups, the Church and the Nations. Both immortal.

About that last sentence, the way I read my Bible the "church" is simply the nation(s) of Israel, particularly under the new covenant, along with whatever "proselytes" join with them. Since eventually all nations would be part of the new covenant (the everlasting covenant), either they would technically be "congregations" (churches), OR there would cease to be any distinction between "church" and "not church", other than the individual national differences between each nation or nation-group.

note: by "churches" I mean the same way there is currently "one church" yet at the same time it exists in many different "churches", with "church" meaning "congregation" or "assembly".

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I always get bogged down in the logistics of anything I am looking at.

But then again, if we describe the created universe in terms of a "simulation" or a "virtual reality", then there is nothing to prevent there being an entirely different set of "natural laws" governing the Eternal State. My problems with the logistics of eternity seem to be based on current laws of physics, chemistry, etc. Perhaps the entire reality will be "reset" with a very different type of "world box" for us to play in.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Having said that, I do not think the premil perspective necessarily obviates the dominion mandate, as if premil automatically requires no dominion mandate. But then again I rarely think inside the boxes "they" have made for us.

So just thinking about the subject briefly here for a moment, I realised something. Dominion does not preclude conflict. Christ is reigning now, and is in the process of subduing his enemies. The fact He is reigning does not require there be no enemies who need to be subdued. Likewise, since the servant is not above the Master, the fact that we have a dominion mandate and a great commission to disciple the nations does not preclude the fact that there is opposition, or that there will be opposition.

The pattern or general outline in Revelation seems to indicate there is a period of conflict, followed by a period in which the dragon is no longer deceiving the nations (the millennium, however you want to look at it). So, the thousand years represents a period of victory, the "peace that results after the conquest", whereas the time frame(s) prior to the millennium represent the period of conquest and warfare.

[TakingDominion]

I was told recently that the manual protects the "light doctrine" and that up to a third of the Organization believes the light doctrine.

Anyone with knowledge, care to comment?